Mozilla is a pretty major accomplishment

Post #163,638 by ChrisR 7/9/04 5:44:12 PM Reply	Mozilla is a pretty major accomplishment Considering the obstacles that project has had to overcome and the nice architecture that has evolved, I wouldn't lightly dismiss what the Chief Architect brings to the table. I assume that you mean to impune his JavaScript creation as opposed to his work in the browser arena? As for JavaScript, it's a serviceable language for the niche that it tries to carve out. Yes there were some dumb decisions made early (like overloading the addition and concatenation operators, as well as the way it does its autoconversion in general). But it also brings some interesting concepts to the table like object prototyping (an idea forwarded in Self - which was an extension to Smalltalk). And when it comes to document scripting (be it html or pdf), there really haven't been any other candidates to step to the plate. JavaScript is not meant as a general programming paradigm in the same sense as C, C++, Java, Smalltalk or Lisp. But it is ok for client side browser scripting, assuming the browser people could (a) implement the standards correctly; and (b) implement a proper sandbox. Most of the problems people have with JavaScript or client side scripting have little to do with the language itself, but rather with the environment that it resides in.
Post #163,639 by deSitter 7/9/04 5:46:58 PM Reply	Re: Mozilla is a pretty major accomplishment Everything in computing that is visible, is mostly shit. -drl
Post #163,640 by ChrisR 7/9/04 6:05:47 PM Reply	zIWETHEY works pretty slick in FireFox The internet and the browser are the major accomplishments of the last 10 to 15 years. You can curse both as subpar and borked, but I daresay that there's a hell of a lot more information at our fingertips as a result of this shit. Yes, there are problems with the way things evolved. And, yes, things could be have been better. But to dismiss this stuff as shit is an exercise in futility itself. Lot's of shit programmers are taking lot's of shit tools and protocols and doing some pretty impressive stuff with this subpar technology. The original question was whether we should make this shit incrementally better. The alternatives are pretty simple at this point. Let the browser languish, never updating the html standard for any reason going into the future. Rely on XHMTL, SVG and XForms to do our more polished user interfaces. Rely on .Net or Java to save us. Or let MS dictate the terms with the new Avalon clients. Well, the XML clients are all specialized, with very uneven to no support in the browser. Java and .Net are not really significant players in the internet applications market (either being a player only on the server side or being confined inside the friendly confines of firewalls). And I won't even go into the Avalon. In any case, I'd venture to say that Todd has expressed much displeasure with Java, .Net and XML. He's probably not enamoured of browser based clients either, but for the kind of freedom to develop applications, I'd say he'd probably prefer an html extension over any of the other alternatives. Perhaps he'll weigh in at some point in the future and set the record straight.
Post #165,216 by deSitter 7/20/04 5:41:06 PM Reply	Re: zIWETHEY works pretty slick in FireFox I missed this post first time, don't know how.. I mostly disagree, and very strongly, with what you say. No one was caught by surprise with the Internet. It was a "thing" for at least 4 years before anyone knew it was a "thing". I remember mentioning Java, back when it had a possibility to evolve into something useful, back in a meeting in 1995 - "Huh?" was the response. Computing evolves at random. All the research and proposed solutions over decades amount to nothing - what we end up with is a stupid, featureless melange of servlets, scriptlets, and other assorted bullshit that evolved the way river gorges evolve - because that's where the water went. There was no planning, no structure, no foresight, nothing - it was all a massive random VBF from the corporate/academic mind, in which the foulest shit had the lowest density and ended up on top. -drl
Post #165,230 by Meerkat 7/20/04 8:12:42 PM Reply	The sky is falling, we're all going to die, etc, etc. Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.
Post #165,235 by deSitter 7/20/04 8:18:02 PM Reply	No, computing sucks because it is mostly populated by fools -drl
Post #165,292 by pwhysall 7/21/04 3:18:41 AM Reply	<frazer>We're all DOOMED</frazer> Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #163,652 by ben_tilly 7/9/04 8:11:52 PM Reply	Worse is Better is an ongoing process We're getting to the level of "really good shit" now. ;-) Cheers, Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]

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