Post #159,674
6/12/04 7:04:01 AM
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I think it's magnified - going downhill from 'sufficiency'
Most under 50 can't remember anything like your father's experience, and if anything today, we seem to be even less attuned to any idea of the adequate VS that unending More. We are now fully accustomed to excess in most things.
Psychological attitude is everything. An 8 yo working in a bowling alley may feel somewhat deprived, but likely not 'resentful'. Today, an 8 yo may feel devastated if not able to buy certain Logos. (Fortunately though, that 8 yo should be much more adaptable than a parent who remembers American life before the great Wealth Transfer began by the cutting of hi-end and Corp tax rates - and the new offshore loopholes became standard; more importantly - became "no longer an ethical issue", for various values of 'ethics').
We are simply a less trustworthy people, from Top to street. Attitude: that is what will make any Fall vastly more divisive and ultimately unbearable - for most, but especially for those who never experienced much in the way of 'want'.
So while our political non-dialogue consists of the shouting matches from Rushmouth to the McLaughlin Group ('she', the token 'middle'-view, has to SHOUT to get in a word and brook extra-interruptions, I notice) - I just don't see much amelioration of general Attitude. We can't actually discuss, let alone debate.
Unfortunately, we lack even Models for ethical and folksy unifying ideas; no Will Rogers extant; damn few 'anyones' in public life, which one might call Trustworthy. Alas, avuncular Walter Cronkite (whom I suspect always has qualified) has reached grandfatherly.
(Was in a similar discussion recently: we couldn't think of Anyone near-universally respected. Desmond Tutu? Nelson Mandela.. uh, not local.)
Maybe there will actually be a 'recovery', for other than the popular and disconnected-from-life Econ-gauges; one including the people the wealth was transferrd-from. We had best hope SO, I think.
Ashton
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Post #160,522
6/19/04 10:13:20 AM
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Funny you mention African leaders, Ashton
(Was in a similar discussion recently: we couldn't think of Anyone near-universally respected. Desmond Tutu? Nelson Mandela.. uh, not local.)
In my parent's church, there is much discussion that the leadership of the worldwide Methodist church may come from Africa in the next decade. Why? Because the African Bishops are "saving souls" and building churches like crazy while America and Europe are in serious decline.
I agree with you that America is truly spoiled. But I also think that it is about to change. There are enough risk factors on the U.S. scene that could bring everything down. Scenarios I see in 12 months:
1. Islamic militant groups overthrow Saudi Royal Family. U.S. largest single source of imported oil is cut off. Iraq's oil facilities were disabled this week. (We've got to learn to live without the stuff, somehow.)
2. Social Security will come to a head in the next 5 years. Outlays will be coming so fast, as baby boomers retire, that our deficit will ballon. The "Social Security Trust Fund" will become the "Social Security Betrayal Fund".
3. As our deficits balloon, foreign countries will stop buying our debt.
4. An new terrorist attack on the U.S. halts everything for a week like in 2001. Sales drop dramatically, as people realize that they need to "pull back". The stock market drops below 7,000 again.
We are in for tough times folks, the cards are there. We are not prepared, most of us individually or as a nation.
We have been too aggressive in middle east and on the world scene to end up like France, Germany, or England. So, we'll be taking our lumps.
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Post #160,526
6/19/04 12:25:30 PM
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Re: Funny you mention African leaders, Ashton
I agree with you that America is truly spoiled. But I also think that it is about to change. There are enough risk factors on the U.S. scene that could bring everything down. Scenarios I see in 12 months:
<snip>
1. Islamic militant groups overthrow Saudi Royal Family. U.S. largest single source of imported oil is cut off. Iraq's oil facilities were disabled this week. (We've got to learn to live without the stuff, somehow.) Actually, this is not true. The United States largest source of imported oil is... Canada. From [link|http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/usa.html|http://www.eia.doe.g...meu/cabs/usa.html] "Overall, the top suppliers of oil (crude and refined products) to the United States during 2003 were Canada (2.1 MMBD), Saudi Arabia (1.8 MMBD), Mexico (1.6 MMBD), and Venezuela (1.4 MMBD)." That said, we are not capable of ramping up production enough to replace the imported oil that would be lost if SA were to become a failed state. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #160,527
6/19/04 12:29:41 PM
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Re: Funny you mention African leaders, Ashton
I think you'll find that the US government is prepared to go to quite extreme lengths to assure the flow of oil from Saudi Arabia.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #160,562
6/19/04 9:04:47 PM
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The problem with this is
it's easy to ensure that no oil comes out. All you have to do is to break the infrastructure. Considering that under the circumstances envisioned that most of the local population would not be interested in keeping it going, this would not be difficult.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #160,532
6/19/04 2:23:00 PM
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I stand corrected....
Let's hope Islamic militants never threaten Canada.
See, I do have a sense of humor once in a while.
Glen Austin
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Post #160,535
6/19/04 3:09:05 PM
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We are more ethical than you'd think
I remember a study done in the mid-90's. (Unfortunately I read it in the NY Times, and so would have no chance of tracking it down again.) They "lost" a series of wallets in various large cities by dropping them in the street. Each included a driver's license and $100. They got virtually all of the wallets back, most of them with $100. A significant portion with letters saying things like, "You are lucky that I picked it up, most of the people around here would have taken the money."
The researchers wrote back to those who sent in $100 explaining that it was an experiment and gave them $200. To the researcher's surprise, multiple people refused to be paid $200 for having done what they thought was right!
The conclusion, while everyone "knows" that courtesy and kindness are lost, most of us, push comes to shove, won't wrongly take $100 even if it is literally lying in the street.
There are, of course, exceptions...
Cheers,
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #160,552
6/19/04 6:10:50 PM
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Yes, I've had similar experiences.. still..
The experiment mentioned probably ought to be as compelling as my own random (and too few) stats. We all know people who 'would return things'; still the most visible [and clearly, recurrent] examples which cross all imaginary categories are.. what the people At Top, those 'managing' affairs Do. And instruct their minions to help-Do.
Possibly our once ~visible 'ethical sense' has simply been overwhelmed by the sophistries of the legal group and the cooing insincerity / dissembling within virtually every AD we ever see.
(Yess.. there is the occasional brilliant exception; I still remember fondly the Exxon? commercial of many moons back - showing a dinosaur-in-your-tank; a subtle + funny reminder {unintentional?} of the complexity and length of the natural "petroleum factory process" from which we are making only withdrawals.)
Maybe the final insult, a classic Language Murder-in-1st degree - which all here can fully plumb is:
Microsoft Trustworthy Computing
So then.. I don't really *know* to what extent Muricans are in fact 'less trustworthy' today -?- But I do think I Know; that the airwaves are filled with counter-examples from Top to next door, and I see that I experience more 'subtle lies' in the course of the usual daily affairs from auto maintenance to countless droids on phones - most of these.. speaking for The Corporation. Certainly much more of this than say - 20 yrs. ago.
Ashton.
who has come to believe that dishonesty | Corporate 'Success' are inextricably entwined. And after all is said, We Are a Corporatocracy [or I have noticed Nothing.]
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Post #160,578
6/19/04 9:56:50 PM
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Being ethical doesn't usually get you ahead. :-(
But that isn't new. Machiavelli documented it 500 years ago. Human nature hasn't changed.
Cheers,
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #160,584
6/19/04 10:08:57 PM
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It's a mixture
Short term VS long term gain.
Unethical behaviour allows for immediate gain while sacrificing long term, at least if long term depends on future trust.
Unless there is a chance for absolute power, which means long term gain is assured.
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Post #160,586
6/19/04 10:15:21 PM
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Indeed
By business, the level of personal ethics that you will see is strongly dependent on how much retaining your good will results in repeat business.
Car mechanics in strange cities and people associated in arranging wedding parties stand out as examples of people who have no such long-term incentives.
Cheers,
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #160,607
6/20/04 5:43:41 AM
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Parsing behaviour into bizness 'logic'
may perfectly explain the popularity of rationalizing personal dishonesty [via some formula re present or future "gain"] - as if digital-logic were quite enough to deal with this or any other human quality.
Rest case.
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