Look who is talking about President Reagan.

Post #159,065 by Arkadiy 6/8/04 4:58:09 PM Reply	Look who is talking about President Reagan. [link\|http://nytimes.com/2004/06/07/opinion/07GORB.html?8bl\|http://nytimes.com/2...n/07GORB.html?8bl] -- Buy high, sell sober.
Post #159,067 by bepatient 6/8/04 5:03:14 PM Reply	He must be lying. After all, he's saying nice things...and surely a man as bad as is represented here cannot have these qualities. What would Gorbachev know anyway? If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #159,070 by altmann 6/8/04 5:05:53 PM Reply	I wonder the same ... ..about you sometimes. -- Chris Altmann
Post #159,091 by bepatient 6/8/04 5:45:22 PM Reply	Good. As well you should. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #159,072 by Ashton 6/8/04 5:09:22 PM Reply	A most gracious epitaph - and for once, from someone not needing Links to establish his credibility. Or relevance. (He also answered some questions I've had, concerning his perceptions. He is, of course - since he possesses Class - omitting some of the galling matters which, fortunately for us all: did not unravel the early efforts to begin creating trust.) Ashton
Post #159,075 by Arkadiy 6/8/04 5:14:00 PM Reply	Let me get it straight: do you think that Gorbachev is lying to avoid badmouthing the dead? or do you think he is sincere? -- Buy high, sell sober.
Post #159,084 by Ashton 6/8/04 5:24:47 PM Reply	Neither.. {While we can never Know fershure..} he appears to be giving his perception of what he deemed to be some of the reasons that ~ finally.. the two could work together. Why shouldn't these be 'True'? Omitting other details is neither 'lying' nor - would it be appropriate in such a note to the widow. And, even though we saw the road to a world free of nuclear weapons differently, is as far as he went, and who could say, inappropriately? This is far from a complete assessment of RR by Gorbachev. Why imagine it is? moi
Post #159,086 by Arkadiy 6/8/04 5:29:02 PM Reply	Re: Neither.. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The personal rapport that emerged between us over the years helped me to appreciate Ronald Reagan's human qualities. A true leader, a man of his word and an optimist, he traveled the journey of his life with dignity and faced courageously the cruel disease that darkened his final years. He has earned a place in history and in people's hearts. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Is this just a polite talk, or Gorbachev means what he says? -- Buy high, sell sober.
Post #159,090 by dmarker 6/8/04 5:38:44 PM Reply	He meant it & for good reason _________________________________________________________ "Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!". -- Leonardo Da Vinci
Post #159,094 by jbrabeck 6/8/04 5:51:48 PM Reply	Actually both. He could very well mean everything he said. Regardless of what your personal polical views are, wverything he said is true. The polite talk is 'cuz he didn't have to say so. Speaking was polite.
Post #159,185 by GBert 6/9/04 10:49:09 AM Reply	He's sincere yet very diplomatic Gorbachev is so smooth he manages to avoid coming off as damning with faint praise -- an amazing feat considering how the court hagiographers are presenting Reagan these days. His is a nice assessment of Reagan's place. My hat is off to Gorbachov. Until it happened, I never thought the end of the Soviet Union could come about in such a relatively peaceful manner... I even thought we would end up supporting the whole structure for decades just to avoid the chaos and unpredictability following a collapse. I'm not a complete idiot -- some parts are missing
Post #159,122 by deSitter 6/8/04 9:59:12 PM Reply	Good manners ..and of course everyone in Europe and many here love Gorbachev for his courage - and we think of HIM as the liberator of the Soviet Union - a real Russian revolutionary. I have not good manners for those people - I wonder what Gorbachev thought of Lenin. -drl
Post #159,167 by Arkadiy 6/9/04 9:19:22 AM Reply	For all I know, he regards Lenin very highly. But then, it's a habit that's hard to shake. Even I find it hard to hate Lenin the way Solzhenitsyn hates him. Yes, I know all the facts, I know that GULAG was started on his watch, I know about Kronshtadt, I know about the farce that the October Revolution was. His books are mostly garbage - he curses his opponents every second sentence. Still. I can't help thinking that Lenin was _both_ power-crazy politician and a true believer, doing things he thought were good. I have same ambivalence about Khruschev, to a lesser degree. Stalin and Brezhnev are beyound the pale. My attitude toward Lenin may be a result of my childhood conditioning. I am not sure what explains Khruschev - may be the fact that his memory was so thoroughly repressed that I did not know he existed till I was around 10 years old(12?), and that from a book found in the attick of the summer house. The book was about Khruschev's visit to USA. That was such a fresh breath of air comparing to the official propaganda of the time! -- Buy high, sell sober.
Post #159,256 by mmoffitt 6/9/04 3:40:23 PM Reply	Everyone I've met disagrees with me, but do you? I lost a brother at when I was 28 (he was three years my junior). I've often thought that some of Lenin's attitudes about the Czars were formed when, at the age of 16, he watched his brother executed. I can't speak for Lenin, and I didn't see my brother kill himself, but I can say with a certainty I have for few things that losing a brother is one of the most difficult things you can go through (especially true when you and your brother were/are close). I can imagine myself having a lifelong hatred of Czarist Russia after watching my brother hang. I've always believed that Lenin's experience played at least a part in his motivation. Not coincidentally, imho, age 16 is when Lenin said he stopped believing in God. bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #159,261 by Arkadiy 6/9/04 4:41:27 PM Reply	Please remember - Lenin's revolution did not overthrow the Tsar's govenment. His coup d'etat killed off the Provisional Government, a caretaker installed to take the country to Constitutional Assembly. The revolution that got rid of the Tsar caught Lenin unawares, in Switzerland, preoccupied with the major developements in Scandinavian worker movement. I may agree with you that brother's death was a factor in Vladimir Ulianov's entry into revolution. But Lenin's fight was not with Tzar - he was fighting capitalism as such. So no, his hatred of Tsarism was a purely tactical convinience for most of his carier. -- Buy high, sell sober.
Post #159,263 by mmoffitt 6/9/04 4:47:44 PM Reply	Motive for the murders, perhaps? bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #159,275 by deSitter 6/9/04 5:52:03 PM Reply	Re: Please remember - Lenin's revolution I would say (being however not as knowing as you) that the terrible struggle between Whites and Reds (cf Pasternak) was the real revolution. Russia's revolution was much like France's. -drl
Post #159,080 by a6l6e6x 6/8/04 5:19:50 PM Reply	Thanks, Arkadiy! I might have missed it otherwise. Kind words indeed from a man that deserves credit for his part in history. Alex Honor has not to be won; it must only not be lost. -- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860), German philosopher
Post #159,129 by mmoffitt 6/8/04 10:22:07 PM Reply	Gorbachev, the man who did in 7 years what ... the CIA couldn't in 70. bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #159,144 by dmarker 6/9/04 12:57:36 AM 6/9/04 6:37:40 AM Reply	Naw, Gorby inherited a country that ... got conned into letting the military planners take the lion's share of the then 5-year planning cycle budget. This occured at a time when industry infrastructure was absolutely desperate for investment and renewal. The result of the military block getting the money was rapidly declining industrial output and rapidly declining morale but on a 'good' note, vodka sales throughout USSR went through the roof & even got a cult following in the west :-) Gorby had no real alternatives but to curb the military spending (which pissed off the old die-hards & right wingers) & to try to refocus on industry (when it was already too late). Do you remember the visit Gorby did to East Germany where he told Eric Honecker,in public & to his face, that the USSR could no longer afford to prop him up. Same to Castro Same to all the other then soviet coat-tail leeches & proxies. Gorby inherited a bankrupted USSR - it was not of his direct doing. Guess who pushed the USSR into make such a planning blunder ? (Mr Teflon & 'his' "impossible" Star Wars charade (admittedly - combined with the Catholic church electing with impeccable timing, a Polish Pope to replace the assasinated left-influenced simpleton who preceeded him)). Cheers Doug #2 (said Ulbricht but meant Honecker - corrected) _________________________________________________________ "Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!". -- Leonardo Da Vinci Edited by dmarker June 9, 2004, 06:37:40 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #159,145 by dmarker 6/9/04 12:58:19 AM 6/9/04 6:34:56 AM Reply	Naw, Gorby inherited a country that ... got conned into letting the military planners take the lion's share of the then 5-year planning cycle budget. This occured at a time when industry infrastructure was absolutely desperate for investment and renewal. The result of the military block getting the money was rapidly declining industrial output and rapidly declining morale but on a 'good' note, vodka sales throughout USSR went through the roof & even got a cult following in the west :-) Gorby had no real alternatives but to curb the military spending (which pissed off the old die-hards & right wingers) & to try to refocus on industry (when it was already too late). Do you remember the visit Gorby did to East Germany where he told Eric Honecker,in public & to his face, that the USSR could no longer afford to prop him up. Same to Castro Same to all the other then soviet coat-tail leeches & proxies. Gorby inherited a bankrupted USSR - it was not of his direct doing. Guess who pushed the USSR into make such a planning blunder ? (Mr Teflon & 'his' "impossible" Star Wars charade (admittedly - combined with the Catholic church electing with impeccable timing, a Polish Pope to replace the assasinated left-influenced simpleton who preceeded him)). Cheers Doug #2 (said Ulbricht but meant Honecker - corrected) _________________________________________________________ "Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!". -- Leonardo Da Vinci Edited by dmarker June 9, 2004, 06:34:56 AM EDT Expand All History

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