Post #158,320
6/3/04 8:07:32 PM
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I'd love to see this one challenged in court
When you sign up for the military, you've signed a contract. Contract law has a long history, and doesn't normally accept that, after the fact, one side can unilaterally declare its terms to be something different.
I wonder what legal justification they would cite for why they can do this?
Cheers,
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #158,322
6/3/04 8:21:07 PM
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The Denis Leary defence: "Coz we've got the bombs, OK?!"
Two out of three people wonder where the other one is.
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Post #158,324
6/3/04 8:28:18 PM
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Guessing at some answers
Being a "retired" military (11 Active + 10 Reserve, so no pay 'til 60), I'll try to give some answers.
Re: retiring. A retiree is eligible for recall anytime until the mandatory (60) retirement age. Therefore, there is no "problem" to deny retirement. The potential retiree may (don't know for sure) have the option of foregoing the retirement to just "quit". But after serving 20 years, that would be "not an option".
Those who enlist do so for a period of eight years. Normally 3 active, 3 active reserve, two inactive reserve. Reserves can be called up at any time. Therefore the military is exercising its right to activate the soldier for the duration of his commitment.
National Guards fall into the same category. They volunteered for eight years, knowing that they could be activated for the entire time. Most aren't.
IANAL, but AFAICS, the only person with a legitimate complaint would be the soldier who has met their 8 year obligation and wants to "just quit" at the end of thier current commitment. They would have to be released.
Any other retirees feel free to make corrections.
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Post #158,327
6/3/04 9:11:05 PM
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There are lots of exceptions in the military.
If you're interested, the Army's latest stop-loss instructions are [link|http://perscomnd04.army.mil/milpermsgs.nsf|here] (It gets redirected to an https site. Click on the 04-169 link.) - it's ALL CAPS so it's rather painful to read. There are some exceptions for hardship, etc. The enlistment contract is very broad. Consider the [link|http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:fUBiKvj-wBIJ:www.dior.whs.mil/forms/DD0004.pdft&hl=en|DD4] form (Google cache of the PDF) (reformatted slightly below). Note that the DD4 is only a "partial statement of existing United States laws": 9. FOR ALL ENLISTEES OR REENLISTEES:
Many laws, regulations, and military customs will govern my conduct and require me to do things a civilian does not have to do. The following statements are not promises or guarantees of any kind. They explain some of the present laws affecting the Armed Forces which I cannot change but which Congress can change at any time.
a. My enlistment is more than an employment agreement. As a member of the Armed Forces of the United States, I will be:
(1) Required to obey all lawful orders and perform all assigned duties.
(2) Subject to separation during or at the end of my enlistment. If my behavior fails to meet acceptable military standards, I may be discharged and given a certificate for less than honorable service, which may hurt my future job opportunities and my claim for veteran's benefits.
(3) Subject to the military justice system, which means, among other things, that I may be tried by military courts-martial.
(4) Required upon order to serve in combat or other hazardous situations.
(5) Entitled to receive pay, allowances, and other benefits as provided by law and regulation.
b. Laws and regulataions that govern military personnel may change without notice to me. Such changes may affect my status, pay, allowances, benefits, and responsibilities as a member of the Armed Forces REGARDLESS of the provisions of this enlistment/reenlistment document.
c. In the event of war, my enlistment in the Armed Forces continues until six (6) months after the war ends, unless my enlistment is ended sooner by the President of the United States. And remember Joe's (IIRC) [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=155953|post]. If the military has you in their system, they can probably get you back (no matter what your contract said) if the proper exception or emergency legislation is invoked. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #158,330
6/3/04 10:01:13 PM
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Both of you answered my question. Thanks.
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #158,332
6/3/04 10:22:41 PM
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I had forgotten 9c
So just how long will the "war" on terrorism last?
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Post #158,334
6/3/04 10:35:00 PM
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We have always been at war with Eastasia...
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Post #158,391
6/4/04 9:57:00 AM
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We're not currently at war, so 9c doesn't apply
According to the Constitution, War is declared by both houses of Congress. No War resolution, no War; hence, 9c doesn't apply.
It's really rather simple, if you follow directions...
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #158,338
6/3/04 10:46:22 PM
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Two things
c. In the event of war, my enlistment in the Armed Forces continues until six (6) months after the war ends, unless my enlistment is ended sooner by the President of the United States. This is the part I would attack if I were involuntarily extended. - Was there a formal declaration of war?
- What does "the war ends" mean?
- Victory?
- Truce?
- No one left to declare war on?
- There was never a surrender or truce in the Korean War, just a cease-fire. Should Korean War vets demand back pay for the forty years they haven't been getting paid?
Second thing is that I have first-hand experience with involuntary extension. Except that mine was technically voluntary: just coerced. I had orders to report to Cleveland. I already had an apartment, my house was packed into a truck, my ex (she wasn't an ex yet) had already quit her job. I went to check out from my old unit and the company commander noticed that I only had 33 months left on my contract. The assignment in Cleveland was supposed to be for 36 months. The CC told me I'd have to extend for 3 more months to accept the orders. I had no intention of extending. He said, "So you're refusing orders?" No, just not extending. "You have to extend to accept these orders." Bottom line, he wouldn't sign my paperwork to detach from the unit and report to the new one until I extended. If I hadn't extended, he'd have put it down that I refused orders -- which you can do once in your career -- and they'd have sent me to Okinawa for a year instead. Unaccompanied. (ie: no family) Then at the end of the year I'd have gotten orders to somewhere else, and not been allowed to refuse orders again. ===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #158,373
6/4/04 7:07:55 AM
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IIRC Korea was never "war", just "police" action.
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Post #158,419
6/4/04 12:28:44 PM
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Re: What does "the war ends" mean?
You mean Commander in Chief with "Mission Accomplished!" banner on aircraft carrier doesn't count?
Alex
Honor has not to be won; it must only not be lost. -- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860), German philosopher
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Post #158,421
6/4/04 12:33:14 PM
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Every time a military member travels
and arrives at his/her home station the travel itinerary's last enter is "Mission Complete".
Maybe that's what the banner meant. He arrived on the boat! (For all you barnacle scrapers, I know it's a ship)
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