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New Oh Right!
That was clearly a signal to Osama bin Laden that many Afghan tribal leaders no longer want him or his al Qaeda organization to remain in Afghanistan.

Given that the Taliban themselves are, generally, foreigners originally from Pakistan, does that mean they want to remove themselves from the country? "Clearly a signal"? Oh gag me, ye news media swilling gullible ones.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
New Different tribes? Vas you dere, Charlie?
D'ya think there might be genuine *Afghans* currently in Peshawar - possessing a certain influence, just as they suggest?

No? How about some of that black & white proof stuff, with a genealogy of all the Pushtuns + cousins = Who's in charge. (that meet your standards, that is.)

Sheesh

A.
New Re: Oh Right! - get your history right ...

Afghanistan was created separate to old 'India' by Brits in mid 1800s more or less after they got anihilated by the local tribes around Kabul in 1836 & later 1878. Brits went there to protect Northern India from a perceived invasion by Ruskies (who had frightened the English colonies of the day such that NZ & Australia built massive fortifications in major ports in anticipation of Russian invasion - hard to believe isn't it - (I have played in most of those old forts in both countries as a very young kid - had these amazing pop-up cannons that would swing up fire a massive shell then swing down out of view)).

Then in 1949, two countries were created out of India, These being India and Pakistan brought on by the partitioning of India when India got independance & Mulims (Mr Jinna) wanted their own country (the friction between India & Pakistan goes back to a poor splitting of Kashmir, leaving the majority Mulims there under Hindu rule & thus fermenting an IRA vs Britain type of conflict).

There were actually 2 Pakistans - East & West one each side of India but the Begali Wests (also Muslims) rebelled & with Indian support fought for inependance & now can boast to be the most poverty stricken hell-hole in Asia, called BanglaDesh.

The peoples around the border areas of these artificial countries (East Pakistan and Afghanistan) of the day - were all the same people - maily Pashtun.

So be careful about simplistic assesments of who is who & what is what.

Cheers

Doug

New Re: More precise detail on formation of Afghanistan

In approx 1747 the territory that is today's Afghanistan was Persian in the north & Indian in the south.

A council of the Pasht was held in 1747 that laid the foundation for a Pashtun/Afghan state. The tribal groups included Tajiks, Uzbecks both of who were suspicious of the majority Pashtuns (and remain so today). The name Afghans refers to the Pashtuns. In 1838-1918 the interests of Britain, Russia & Afghanistan crossed paths (as outlined in preceeding post).

Afghanistan wanted its independance & teritorial integrity, Britain wanted to protect her imperial ambitions in India & Russia wanted to balance British interests.

In early 1900s the 'Durand line' was established by treaty with Britain, which set up a contentious international boundary between Afghanistan & an area which at the time became known as the Northwest Frontier Province (later East Pakistan, now Pakistan).

Russia (newly created USSR) was the 1st country to recognise modern Afghanistan back in 1919 (ironic in a sense :-). A treaty of friendship was signed with Russia in 1921.

In 1950 when Nthwest Frontier Prov had become Pakistan, the Pakis closed the border with Afghanistan over a dispute. In 1953 the PM of Afghanistan formed a trade alliance with USSR but it didn't work. The history then beccomes more familiar.

Doug Marker






New Nit. Pashtun aren't the majority in Afghanistan.
Hi Doug,

The tribal groups included Tajiks, Uzbecks both of who were suspicious of the majority Pashtuns (and remain so today).

I don't know about the case in 1747, but the Pashtun aren't the majority in Afghanistan today. (I note that you're not saying they are. Your post is just a convenient place to make this point. :-) I think it needs to be made because much of the US press is reporting that the Pashtun is the majority ethnic group in Afghanistan today.)

[link|http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html|The CIA Factbook] says the following about Afghanistan's ethnic groups:

Ethnic groups:
Pashtun 38%, Tajik 25%, Hazara 19%, minor ethnic groups (Aimaks, Turkmen, Baloch, and others) 12%, Uzbek 6%

Religions:
Sunni Muslim 84%, Shi'a Muslim 15%, other 1%

Languages:
Pashtu 35%, Afghan Persian (Dari) 50%, Turkic languages (primarily Uzbek and Turkmen) 11%, 30 minor languages (primarily Balochi and Pashai) 4%, much bilingualism

[...]

Infant mortality rate:
147.02 deaths/1,000 live births (2001 est.)

Life expectancy at
birth:
total population: 46.24 years
...male: 46.97 years
...female: 45.47 years (2001 est.)

Total fertility rate:
5.79 children born/woman (2001 est.)

[...]

Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write

total population: 31.5%
male: 47.2%
female: 15% (1999 est.)


There's lots more info about Afghanistan there, but little history.

The Pashtun have a [link|http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=plurality|plurality], but not a [link|http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=majority|majority]. They aren't >= 50% of the population. The press members who reports these things should know better.

Thanks for letting me rant a bit here. :-)

The extremely low literacy rate, especially among women, makes it difficult for things like pamphlet drops and food drops to have the desired results. :-(

Interesting writeup, Doug. Thanks.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: Nit. Pashtun aren't the majority in Afghanistan.

Fair comment - In 1747 & for 100 years or so the actual area was samller that the final Afghan borders of today - sevarl additional areas got appended & you are right, the Afghan/Pashtun people were > 50% back then but from your info they aren't an absolute majority today.

Cheers

Doug
New Re: Perhaps we need to ...

have a private chat

My email is dmarker@netvigator.com

Please contact me or send me your email addr

I feel it would be better to communicate privately before something really unpleasant gets written. The way your emails are heading, I can assure you it could get very ugly but I would rather we discuss directly and circumvent the inevitable. You may be surprised.

Cheers

Doug Marker
     Influential Afghan leaders pave way for new rulers also OBL - (dmarker2) - (7)
         Oh Right! - (wharris2) - (6)
             Different tribes? Vas you dere, Charlie? - (Ashton)
             Re: Oh Right! - get your history right ... - (dmarker2) - (3)
                 Re: More precise detail on formation of Afghanistan - (dmarker2) - (2)
                     Nit. Pashtun aren't the majority in Afghanistan. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                         Re: Nit. Pashtun aren't the majority in Afghanistan. - (dmarker2)
             Re: Perhaps we need to ... - (dmarker2)

*gloat*
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