Post #147,714
3/23/04 6:14:30 AM
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I hope I am wrong with this prediction ...
Am happy to be reminded how wrong I am should this scenario turn out to be different. I want to be wrong !.
With the assassination of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, it seems Israel has taken a very calculated move toward escalating the ME conflict and with the realisation that it can only push the stakes higher thus precipitating open warfare between Israel and the Palestinians in which Arafat will also be hit.
I am sure that it will spread to other countries but will hopefuly be limited and minimised due to the current state of preparedness of western security agencies to contain excessive revenge attacks by militant Islamic forces elsewhere in the world.
In the past 2-3 years a very high level of security monitoring of things like personal computers and traffic on the Internet & email etc:, have been put in place in most major countries around the world. The west is 'somewhat' prepared for the worst that can come out of an escalating ME conflict.
I believe Bush (or actually Cheney & advisers) are well aware of, and are party to, the game plan which in its broadest terms is to escalate the ME conflict to its fiery conculsion because all other methods have failed. The conflict just won't go away. It seems to me a strategy has been adopted that says that if Israel and Palestine can't negotiate a peace (those attempts really died when Ehud Barak failed to get a deal with Arafat at camp David), then the only way to resolve the conflict in the shorter term (not another 50 years of haemorrahging & hate & Bin Laden like attacks) is to escalate it to its worst until the hate is burnt up one way or another, in the ensuing horror of war.
One of the core 3 reasons given by Bin Laden for why he and his followers hate America and the west so much, is to do with the never ending tide of tears, fears and death in Palestine except Bin Laden can *only* see it from the Arab side. He seems to give no creedence to the many serious attempts made to broker a peace between Palestinians and Jews nor the years of siege that Israel has lived through since 1948. Repeatedly, when peace seems close, Arafat backs away at the last minute, partly because it is his nature & partly because other Arabs would turn on him like a wounded fish in a tank of piranha should he be seen by them to have in anyway given an inch. Arafat is a victim of his own success as 'leader' of Palestinians.
I have had the feeling that US, UK & Australia are privy to the intention to to burn the ME conflict out by throwing petrol on it. Assassinating Sheikh Yassin can only lead to one result, retaliation on a big scale and counter retaliation equally on a big scale. Should it pan out this way then the repubs get to survive the coming election as will John Howard here & most likely Tony Blair in the UK.
A war breaking out in the ME somewhere has seemed on the cards for a while. I think we have said as much among ourselves here over the past 18 months. Until this week it might have seemed like it was going to be Iran or Syria where it would happen (am sure Syria *will* get dragged in & US military is ready & waiting).
So my prediction now is that whilst Bush Howard & Blair look unelectable right at the moment, that they will survive on the back of an outbreak of warfare in the ME that was put in train with the calculated assassination of the spiritual leader of Hamas.
Doug Marker
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Post #147,719
3/23/04 7:15:09 AM
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Exactly what Color is the HAT?
I am wondering if something might actually have been predicted. Just wrong on the Dates.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
I did a 10K wheelchair race once. The NTMFAC who pushed me still has the whip-marks.
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Post #147,901
3/23/04 4:53:57 PM
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Re: Exactly what Color is the HAT?
Not sure what you mean ? - There are two aspects to an issue like this the moral aspect and the probability of action aspect.
After listening to the news here & also whilst following the Washinton hearings & thinking of the consequences of an escalation, I have tried to focus on probable actions.
As to the moral side of the issue, it has to be predicated on the actions being accurately predicted & that is not a given, just one person's estimate of a probability, and said I hope to be proven wrong.
I could only accurately comment on the morality if I was privvy to the detailed thinking behind the strategy. In medicine there is an old adage that with cancer, the doctor has to cut it out else it will eventually take over. If there is an intentional escalation & the motives are based on that adage. Then morally I might be inclined to go along with it. But it is a strategy fraught with dangers.
Cheers Doug M
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Post #148,035
3/23/04 10:36:44 PM
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Nostradamus and his often maligned predictions
I believe that after the twin towers came down, we are just waiting the the Blue Hatted guy NOW.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
'In view of the fact that Microsoft is acondemned monopolist and on the other hand the internal messages andfinancial transactions of SCO look ever doubtful, Microsoft should bereally anxious that to the own company something does not remainsticking from the Gestank of the SCO.' --Plagarized from [link|http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20040322133607169|GROKLAW]
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Post #147,727
3/23/04 8:14:31 AM
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To be perfectly honest
..it would almost be a relief if open warfare broke out in the entire region, with even the Russians involved and Yugo-once-ia. Have a nice little cataclysm to rearrange the entire map, put a final end to Islamiscist regimes, put Israel in its place with a mandated Palestinian state, make Russia happy with some kind of access to the sea. The Islamic world must be shown that their AD 900 lives are not worth a fig in 2004, that they must surrender to modernity or die. Period. There is no placating these people, let the gloves come off.
-drl
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Post #147,728
3/23/04 8:22:45 AM
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Range of options
In all out war, all bets are off, and prognostication is for fools.
What happens if after ten years of insane war, the Israelis all get killed, the Islamicists control the whole shooting match, and are all united under one leader, who hates both Russia and the West, and is not afraid of science?
Never forget that in the area in question there are a lot more Arabs than any other group: the Israelis are seriously outnumbered. Are you going to be willing to sacrifice tens of thousands of US lives for them? When you're talking about total war (and total war is not what has happened there, not by a long shot) total numbers count. In Europe, the Allies didn't have to worry about the ground at their back because they were filled with friendly people (ie- non-Germans). In the theatre, the enemy were seriously outnumbered, so when total war came in 1944, the allies could succeed. However, in the ME as a whole, this is absolutely not the case.
Total war is a major can of worms that's cocked and aimed at the person opening it. The potential for unintended consequences is extreme.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #147,730
3/23/04 8:29:39 AM
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Re: Range of options
Let history come - it's clear that the idiots who purport to be statesmen on all sides couldn't lead a cat out of a pillowcase. A general war in the region is unavoidable I think. Let it happen while we have an advantage.
-drl
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Post #147,737
3/23/04 9:10:42 AM
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Careful what you ask for.
By various sources, the number of Muslims world wide is approaching 1.5 Billion (that's a "B"). You declare war on Islam and how many of those are going to remain "moderate"? All out war in the ME won't stay in the ME too long. And, as we have seen, these people are motivated by conviction. Conviction can't be bought. I'm not too sure at all that things would go the way you hope and/or expect. Unless of course, we use our nukes. But then, are we going to use them on ourselves when the war inevitably comes home?
Supporting all out war in the ME is just-plain-dumb.
bcnu, Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #147,743
3/23/04 9:23:58 AM
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Re: Careful what you ask for.
History is drawn out wars surrounded by productive periods. Let's get the war out of the way and get on with it. Mars is waiting.
-drl
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Post #147,818
3/23/04 11:38:28 AM
8/21/07 5:50:50 AM
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Hey, who can?
Lead a cat I mean. The guy who can do that, he gets my vote.
Java is a joke, only it's not funny.
--Alan Lovejoy
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Post #147,889
3/23/04 3:33:27 PM
3/23/04 3:33:50 PM
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Note what you said
"a general war in the region is unavoidable ... let it happen while we have the advantage"
Last time I looked, the US wasn't in the region... it's not even on any of the directly adjacent continents. What advantage? The only thing the US has is long supply lines.
Edit: Remember the wise words: "well, after the biggest blunder: never start a land war in Asia."
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by jake123
March 23, 2004, 03:33:50 PM EST
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Post #147,903
3/23/04 4:59:58 PM
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Re: Range of options
I think there is a difference between a calculated escalation that is deemed to be the only way to bring an issue to a head and the desire to avoid the unavoidable and thus continue with an essentially unacceptable status quo.
You are leaping way into the future, too far out for me to be able to agree or disagree with.
Palestine has been a cancer for close on 70 (years give or take). It is no better today that it was pre-Israel or in the period after delaration when the major wars were fought there.
One fact is irrefutable & that is that the *only* democracy in the ME is Israel. They seem to be the only people there with a will for a demoocracy but are struggling in quicksand with the surrounding governments.
Doug M
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Post #148,311
3/24/04 8:11:15 PM
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But you are forgetting 400 Israeli nukes.
[link|http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/|Israeli Nukes]. If there was a God, a series of spontaneous mushroom clouds in the Negev Desert making that area inhospitable for hundreds miles would be a glorious thing. Yeah, there would be some collateral damage. But, that's OK, peace would follow.
Alex
"Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something." -- last words of Pancho Villa (1877-1923)
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Post #148,359
3/24/04 9:38:42 PM
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move them into down town Jslem I would agree with you
ya wanta worsip there? put on yer glowsuit, bury ya when you come backup. thanx, bill
In Bush\ufffds America, fighting terrorism abroad is used as a pretext for vanquishing civil liberties at home. David Podvin questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #147,735
3/23/04 9:04:09 AM
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Next Move by the Israelis
[link|http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/407834.html|http://www.haaretz.c...pages/407834.html] Defense chiefs have decided to try to kill the entire Hamas leadership, security sources said Tuesday, a day after Israel assassinated the sheikh.
The defense chiefs decided during a five-hour meeting Monday to step up targeted attacks, the sources said, speaking on condition of anonymity. They said officials decided to go after the entire leadership without waiting for another attack by Hamas. thanx, bill
"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #148,077
3/24/04 4:06:53 AM
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I trust you aren't missing..
how your scenario echoes the Fundies and their current overt campaign to help along their fav lunatic-fantasy: rhymes with, Arrr.. I'ma (notta) gettin any..
These are precisely the strain of loony as gets a Hard on whenever 'events' head the clock at the Bulletin / Atomic Scientists nearer midnight. At "7 minutes til" currently --- I believe it is much too optimistic a setting, as we speak. (And it'll take another 2 months / next issue to see if any other readers agree with my suggestion, to move it >|Closer.)
Shrub has both the appropriate intellect and recent conditioning, to be a doin Gawd's Will\ufffd \ufffd Halliburton, to be implemented any old time via that cadaverous Bag Man, who hangs out just the other side of the door [do I need to translate?]
As to how and Why!? Oz folk [!!] would become a party to the penultimate insanity (the one: just as the Bagman opens up his valise) - not. a. clue.
Ditto freaked-out Tony B; embattled yes - yet while he's daily less popular with UK's vox populi, he actually has/once-had? a brain.
Would the Tin Man *and* the Scarecrow collaborate in mutual suicide pacts? And All That irreversible destruction: for a 'Jesus' so mangled in these fervid brain pans -
as to be unrecognizable (to anyone who ever sorta liked much of the cat's shtik, before his more psych-damaged followers began rewriting it all to invent sinecures and gold robes).
You did see these parallels, yes?
moi
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