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New My way?
The kid wins, every time, for me.

For very twisted definition of "win" as "win" seems to mean "take the kids away from the parents because we really don't know but we know better". No one wins

where the social services have played it your way

Just what exactly is "my way"?
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New I'm sorry
Not being clear.

I understood "your way", such as it is (i.e. largely undefined except by my assumptions (oops)) to mean "innocent until proven guilty".

That methodology has certainly led to dead children in the UK.
--
Peter
Shill For Hire
New Re: I'm sorry
I understood "your way", such as it is (i.e. largely undefined except by my assumptions (oops)) to mean "innocent until proven guilty".

"My way" is simply that social actions have nearly police-state-like powers but without similar checks on their powers and that can lead to serious abuses, even unintentionally of power. "My way" is simply that any agent of that state with that much power should also have those restrictions

That methodology has certainly led to dead children in the UK.

And the converse is true as well. Abuse of power leads to destroyed innocent lives. That, at least in theory, is a price we've determined to pay as as a society. Power is not left unchecked and hopefully the number of innocents falsy prosecuted is kept low and the cost is that sometimes the guilty go free. Sometimes the innocent die so that the innocent can be free. It's a nasty line to dane on The emotionalism that this deals with children cannot over run reason because it works both ways. It's sickening when a child is abused; it's sickening when a family is ripped apart
Jay

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New Is that a price that you're willing to pay?
Are you prepared to let your children die so that another parent's right to privacy in parenting is preserved?

In other words, are your children less important than your Liberty and your Rights?

It's a terrible, terrible question to ask, one parent to another.

And for the record, I'm not prepared to pay that price.

--
Peter
Shill For Hire
New Turn it around
I'm damn well ready to let someone else's child die so that mine can live with me
New I'm the someone else
And I won't let your children die just so that mine can live with *me*.

Live children are infinitely more appealing than dead ones, wherever they are.
--
Peter
Shill For Hire
New Couple of nits...
And I won't let your children die

First off, its really not within your baliwick, unless there's something you've not told us. :)

Live children are infinitely more appealing than dead ones, wherever they are.

The question is on which side to we err? As you put it, they can't win. And you're right.

But its a very tricky line...

And Jay's point - that if we err on the side of "caution" that you seem to indicate, that we rip families apart on the mere witchhunt for evidence, that that is overall worse, than the (far less likey to happen) case of well-hidden child abuse that results in a death - (at least, that's how I read it) - I think is well taken.

Boy, we're really burning up the philosophy today, aren't we? :)

Traumatizing and turning the lives of hundreds of families to shit (And have the parents have to beg, if they're ever allowed to see their children again - and also sending the children away from home, into strangers home's, which may or may not be *better*) for the sake of potentially stopping the murder of a child.......

I gotta side with Jay on this one.. you've got to have some harder evidence (because, his other point is similarly well taken - the Social Service people do NOT have to get a warrent, show cause, and they CAN remove from you your family - on a whim, with very little recourse.) to make that call.

As cold as it might sound.

Addison
New Re: Couple of nits...
Peter already said that they DO need warrants in Britain.

So the system here is broken, not the philosophy.

Witchhunt is a pretty charged word. Makes it sound pretty bad, doesn't it. I don't see an investigation the same as a witchhunt.
Regards,

-scott anderson
New Would it?
And I won't let your children die just so that mine can live with *me*.

Would it be solace to you? "Oh well, they took my kids away and I'm branded a child-abuser for life, but at least someone else's child might live"

How much paranoia is worth it? How many families that are wrongly accused are worth the off chance you might save one? 10, 100, 1,000. How do you even know how many kids have actually been saved?

How do you know if your child who has been taken by the state is even safe?

============================================
CHELSEA, Maine - The high chair was tipped over in an unfinished part of the basement and smeared with blood when detectives arrived. Strewn about were strips of duct tape with clumps of hair.

The horror chamber described by police is where 5-year-old Logan Marr spent the final hours of her life, taped to her high chair and, evidence suggests, her mouth covered with tape. Cause of death: asphyxiation.

It's not just the grisly nature of the case that's drawn attention since Logan died Jan. 31. The woman charged in the death, the child's foster mother, is a former caseworker for the state agency that monitors foster parents.
============================================

More examples of children dying after the state decided to 'err on the side of the child' for the sake of the children: [link|http://www.nccpr.org/newissues/3.html|SOME CASE HISTORIES]

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting
New That's a highly pathological example
And additionally it's a failure of a system that *tries* to prevent the death of *any* child. For me, at least, TRYING is highly important.

What I can't stomach is the idea that we back off and accept that the collateral damage of some dead children is a suitable price to pay for the sake of "rights".

Because for those "rights", we're sacrificing the rights of those children.

And that can't be right... can it?
--
Peter
Shill For Hire
New Peter, there has to be a better way.
For every failure here to pull a child from an abusive situation and the child dies is complicated by 2 children dying by abuse by the state. This is a fact. If someone thought my children were in danger and I knew that they would be in a safe home, fed well and taken care of until court I wouldnt have a problem. Knowing by the news and my own personal experience If my kids were taken, I would rescue them and take them home to our village where the Indian Child welfare act kicks in and the Tribal Council gets custody, fearless does not have that option. He knows the kids would lose if taken away. Everytime, everywhere in this nation. That is a fact that the state is the worse parent imaginable. Just read Charlie Manson in his own words of his state upbringing, his story is average not exceptional and you would wish this on our own children?
thanx,
bill
can I have my ones and zeros back?
     popeye the movie was about LA - (boxley) - (57)
         Theft, outright theft - but not *from* whom you might think. - (CRConrad) - (56)
             I know how to make proper - (boxley) - (1)
                 So? - (CRConrad)
             Not really. - (addison) - (53)
                 I've never liked personal property tax. - (admin) - (52)
                     But OTOH, the whole idea of "double taxation" is BS, too. -NT - (CRConrad)
                     That's just cause they use it to pay for schools. :) - (addison) - (50)
                         No, it isn't. - (admin) - (49)
                             wrong nothing is free - (boxley) - (3)
                                 It is in Michigan. - (admin) - (2)
                                     learn something new everyday - (boxley) - (1)
                                         Heh. - (admin)
                             Teach me to be snide in subject titles. - (addison) - (42)
                                 Children are the responsibility of the community IMO - (admin) - (41)
                                     Disagreed - (Fearless Freep) - (40)
                                         So... - (admin) - (33)
                                             Re: So... - (Fearless Freep) - (32)
                                                 Actually, s/schools/schooling - (admin) - (2)
                                                     Don't think so - (Fearless Freep) - (1)
                                                         As a home schooler... - (admin)
                                                 Problem is... - (pwhysall) - (28)
                                                     Re: Problem is... - (Fearless Freep) - (13)
                                                         And.... - (addison)
                                                         Stakes are high - (pwhysall) - (11)
                                                             Yup - (Fearless Freep) - (9)
                                                                 And? - (pwhysall) - (8)
                                                                     Re: And? - (Fearless Freep) - (7)
                                                                         Er? - (pwhysall) - (5)
                                                                             Same thing - (Fearless Freep) - (4)
                                                                                 It's slightly different - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                                                                     Re: It's slightly different - (Fearless Freep)
                                                                                     Re: It's slightly different - (qstephens) - (1)
                                                                                         couldnt you have just pulled out yer gun and? - (boxley)
                                                                         Limitations of social workers - (pwhysall)
                                                             I don't believe I said that. - (addison)
                                                     Assuming.. - (Fearless Freep) - (13)
                                                         Not nearly as equivocal - (pwhysall) - (11)
                                                             My way? - (Fearless Freep) - (10)
                                                                 I'm sorry - (pwhysall) - (9)
                                                                     Re: I'm sorry - (Fearless Freep) - (8)
                                                                         Is that a price that you're willing to pay? - (pwhysall) - (7)
                                                                             Turn it around - (Fearless Freep) - (6)
                                                                                 I'm the someone else - (pwhysall) - (5)
                                                                                     Couple of nits... - (addison) - (1)
                                                                                         Re: Couple of nits... - (admin)
                                                                                     Would it? - (Fearless Freep) - (2)
                                                                                         That's a highly pathological example - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                                             Peter, there has to be a better way. - (boxley)
                                                         NULL, ignore me please. - (pwhysall)
                                         And also note: - (admin) - (5)
                                             Fair point - (Fearless Freep) - (4)
                                                 Not much that can be done about it. - (admin) - (3)
                                                     Above thread describes the ickiest of human 'interactions' - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                         Kind of hits close to home... - (mhuber) - (1)
                                                             If I had a clumsy kid.. - (Ashton)
                             Agreed - (Fearless Freep) - (1)
                                 squirms and taxation - (wharris2)

They should name these things for their discoverers, like comets.
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