Re: How am I supposed to do this?

I've been on the other side of such requests before.

First consider why people ask for code samples. The problem is that it is easy to inflate resumes, and it is very hard to get a sense of how good someone is in an interview. Asking people to code under pressure causes many to do very poorly. A code sample (as long as you are pretty sure that it really is that person's sample) gives a coder a good sense of what it will be like to work with that person's code. The sample doesn't have to be long, a page or 2 is enough. It also doesn't have to work. You're planning to read it, not run it.

Then why doesn't everyone ask for them? Well if you don't have actual coders involved in making the decision, it is a useless piece of information. Furthermore there are candidates who legitimately can't provide you with a sample. And more who will refuse you. It is a lot of hassle to ask for it.

However if you do have coders with an active role in making the decision, in the current market there isn't any reason to give slack. After all available candidates aren't lacking. And experience suggests that most candidates who actively don't want you to see their code have reasons for that - reasons that would make you not want to hire them. The remaining good candidates who just don't have code because it belongs to a previous employer, well if you can't manage to create some new code on demand, then how will you create it once you are employed?

OK, that is unfair to people who need a development environment to work in and don't have it at home. This is a real problem for, say, mainframe folks. But with PCs, my expectation is that motivated applicants should be able to find a way to make it work.

So if I ask for a code sample, and the person can't or won't produce one in a reasonable time frame, I'd remove that person from the list of candidates and move on.

Besides, odds are that someone who is motivated enough to play with stuff on their own time is likely to be better than someone who isn't. And someone who plays with stuff on their own time won't have any problem producing code to show you.

Conversely if any of you are on the other side of a hiring decision, I'd strongly recommend asking for code samples. I think that you'll find them surprisingly interesting reading material.

Cheers,
Ben

Their request included some simple projects that they would like to see if I didn't have any previous code that I could show them.

It looks like I'll be able to do it this week, I've got a friend who had a MSDN subscription last year. I'm going to go over to his place and code an example there.

Personally, I find it a bit obnoxious. Not in that they want a code sample in general but because it's so expensive to do so for MS. The price of Visual Studio itself is $1000. If you want to stay current, the MSDN subscription is a better option, because it gets you so much in one package, but it costs $800 dollars a year. Those are not minor expenses, ones I could never justify for my own use.

Jay

Post #143,887 by qstephens 2/29/04 4:47:20 AM Reply	Re: How am I supposed to do this? Say no. Simply state that you cannot provide sample source code: your previous coding is the propery of your previous employers, isn't it? qts
Post #143,917 by ben_tilly 2/29/04 11:41:18 AM Reply	I wouldn't do that I've been on the other side of such requests before. First consider why people ask for code samples. The problem is that it is easy to inflate resumes, and it is very hard to get a sense of how good someone is in an interview. Asking people to code under pressure causes many to do very poorly. A code sample (as long as you are pretty sure that it really is that person's sample) gives a coder a good sense of what it will be like to work with that person's code. The sample doesn't have to be long, a page or 2 is enough. It also doesn't have to work. You're planning to read it, not run it. Then why doesn't everyone ask for them? Well if you don't have actual coders involved in making the decision, it is a useless piece of information. Furthermore there are candidates who legitimately can't provide you with a sample. And more who will refuse you. It is a lot of hassle to ask for it. However if you do have coders with an active role in making the decision, in the current market there isn't any reason to give slack. After all available candidates aren't lacking. And experience suggests that most candidates who actively don't want you to see their code have reasons for that - reasons that would make you not want to hire them. The remaining good candidates who just don't have code because it belongs to a previous employer, well if you can't manage to create some new code on demand, then how will you create it once you are employed? OK, that is unfair to people who need a development environment to work in and don't have it at home. This is a real problem for, say, mainframe folks. But with PCs, my expectation is that motivated applicants should be able to find a way to make it work. So if I ask for a code sample, and the person can't or won't produce one in a reasonable time frame, I'd remove that person from the list of candidates and move on. Besides, odds are that someone who is motivated enough to play with stuff on their own time is likely to be better than someone who isn't. And someone who plays with stuff on their own time won't have any problem producing code to show you. Conversely if any of you are on the other side of a hiring decision, I'd strongly recommend asking for code samples. I think that you'll find them surprisingly interesting reading material. Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #143,934 by JayMehaffey 2/29/04 4:51:39 PM Reply	They covered that Their request included some simple projects that they would like to see if I didn't have any previous code that I could show them. It looks like I'll be able to do it this week, I've got a friend who had a MSDN subscription last year. I'm going to go over to his place and code an example there. Personally, I find it a bit obnoxious. Not in that they want a code sample in general but because it's so expensive to do so for MS. The price of Visual Studio itself is $1000. If you want to stay current, the MSDN subscription is a better option, because it gets you so much in one package, but it costs $800 dollars a year. Those are not minor expenses, ones I could never justify for my own use. Jay

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