Kerry wins New Hampshire

Post #138,259 by JayMehaffey 1/28/04 1:54:12 AM Reply	Kerry wins New Hampshire [link\|http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/27/elec04.prez.main/index.html\|CNN] With 97 percent of precincts reporting, the U.S. senator from neighboring Massachusetts was at 39 percent, followed by former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean at 26 percent. The battle for third place in New Hampshire was especially tight, with retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark and Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina running about even. They were followed by Sen. Joe Lieberman of Connecticut. Trailing the pack were Rep. Dennis Kucinich of Ohio and civil rights activist the Rev. Al Sharpton. It's too early to entirly write anybody but Sharpton off. But this is a very bad sign for Kucinich and Lieberman. In some ways it's worse for Lieberman, who really needed a win near his home turf to show he wasn't out of it. Kucinich was always a real long shot, so he hasn't been a disappointment really. Dean's strong second place showing is a good sign for him, if he had dropped into third he probably would have fallen out entirly quickly as people would have begun jumping ship. Kerry is now the front runner, but only by a small margin. This will put him in a lot more press spotlight in the near future, it will be interesting too see if he can handle it better then Dean did. Jay
Post #138,280 by bluke 1/28/04 10:15:52 AM Reply	In recent history Senators haven't done well ... running for President. Since WWII only 1 sitting Senator has won the Presidency JFK. Of the past 5 Presidents, 4 of them were former Governors. The reason for this phenomenom is quite simple. Governors can point to achievements and point to their executive abilities etc. Senators cannot because they have little or no individual responsibility.
Post #138,291 by ben_tilly 1/28/04 11:00:49 AM Reply	I've heard an alternate theory for that Senators are routinely forced to give yes/no votes on complex pieces of legislation that they don't cleanly feel yes or no about. This record can easily be used against them politically by opponents saying, "You were for/against X!" Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #138,285 by mmoffitt 1/28/04 10:44:27 AM Reply	I hate to say this, but suspect I am not alone. If Kerry is the Democratic nominee, then I will not vote in the next election (which will be the first time in my life). I may never vote again. What is the point? Vote for one Republocrat or the other, we all lose anyway. I'm just very depressed that the DLC has co-opted what was once a great party. We are doomed. And we deserve it. bcnu, Mikem I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
Post #138,289 by Arkadiy 1/28/04 10:55:44 AM Reply	I have the same problem: I resolved to never vote for any Congresscrapper who voted for the war resolution on Iraq. I am at a loss for what to do. -- Select [link\|http://www.glumbert.com/pictures/Default.asp?index=30\|here].
Post #138,290 by deSitter 1/28/04 10:59:02 AM Reply	Protest Barrage your critter with real mail. Tell him your immigration story, that you are "real American dreamer" and explain why his attitude is horked. -drl
Post #138,296 by Arkadiy 1/28/04 11:11:35 AM Reply	Oh, I did write to them, all three of them Got a form letter in response, and at least one got reelected despite my vote against. I guess the majority was not there yet... -- Select [link\|http://www.glumbert.com/pictures/Default.asp?index=30\|here].
Post #138,388 by rcareaga 1/28/04 4:49:31 PM Reply	about letters to congresscritters... we have the enlightening testimony of a disillusioned intern—and a fine, albeit discouraging read it is—from the SF Chronicle earlier this month. Excerpt: Everyone inside the Beltway knows that for the average citizen to write or call his or her U.S. representative is a waste of time. Period. Yet, through a force as mysterious as gravity, this kind of information stays within the circle. Whenever I hear someone proudly declare that they feel so strongly about an issue, they are going to write to their congresswoman, I say, "Don't bother." Don't bother, because the only person who's going to read your letter or hear your phone call is an intern, or if you're lucky, a legislative assistant (L.A.), at the bottom of the congressional payroll. Interns don't make policy decisions or even speak with congressmen. They sort your mail and answer your phone calls. I know, because after my first year of college in Washington, I weathered the summer intern scene, where college kids from across America descend upon the capital like a hailstorm of idealism, ambition and naivete. Yes, it's an inglorious position, but still on the inside, and we know best that your letter or phone call is a waste of time. Capital interns, no matter their office or political affiliation, begin each morning by sorting an avalanche of mail. Then, as sunlight creeps westward, they move to the phones, which begin to sound with the angry, concerned, friendly and sometimes clinically insane voices of America. [link\|http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/01/11/INGHT44JFQ1.DTL\|http://www.sfgate.co...1/INGHT44JFQ1.DTL] cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #138,390 by Silverlock 1/28/04 4:55:38 PM Reply	Is an Exorcism in order? Rand; From the last few pics you've used, your head appears to be rotating. No pea soup happening, I hope. ----------------------------------------- .sig pending
Post #138,399 by rcareaga 1/28/04 5:35:16 PM Reply	Re: Is an Exorcism in order? Thanks for your concern, but zzzzZZZZ ZAAA ZAAA AZAZEL AZAZEL no, I'm fine, and in any nnnnnNERGAL BELIAL LAL-LAL-LAL event, and in case sssssbt zzzbt zzzeee b'zeee b'zeee zzzZAMIEL you hadn't noticed bbbbbbheeee BEASTHOOD BEASTHOOD let me call to your Wheeee Moloch, Moloch, serve him attention the fact that it's ssssssSERPENT AHRIMANESsssss THAMUZzzzzz rotating to the left. This is, it seems to me, the only MMMMMMELCHIOM RIMMON ASMODEUS APOLLYON CHEMOSH ROBHES-THE-DOOR-DEMONNNNN sane response to our present pass, but again, it's kind of you zzzzzZZZZ ssssss SSSSSAMMAEL SCRATCH SCRATCH to be concerned. corrrreeee-rrreeee eee EEEEE EREBUS RHADAMANTHUS PRINCE-OF-DARKNESS HORNED ONE UHN UHN UHN nnnnnndially, (the above riff lifted whole cloth from the incomparable b'zzzzzz Pazuzu-Prince-of-Locustsssss Ian Frazier)
Post #138,418 by deSitter 1/28/04 7:24:55 PM Reply	exactly 666 words. -drl
Post #138,417 by deSitter 1/28/04 7:24:01 PM Reply	Re: about letters to congresscritters... I have two letters from Gephardt which are certainly authentic - but Gephardt made it a point in his career to stay closely in touch with his district. -drl
Post #138,310 by tuberculosis 1/28/04 11:47:10 AM Reply	If you're resolved not to vote you might as well vote for Bush. I intend to vote for "Regime change". Nobody can be worse than the circus we have now. "I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone." -- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003
Post #138,311 by boxley 1/28/04 11:48:06 AM Reply	same here same old crap, con artists ripping off fools. Ah, hell, Catholic Church it start off that way. They All do. Jesus probably had three walnut shells one pea, then he's dead and can't be questioned, Gabriel Dupre questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #138,382 by ChrisR 1/28/04 4:05:24 PM Reply	Ditto
Post #138,335 by jake123 1/28/04 1:01:33 PM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #138334 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=138334\|ICLRPD] --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #138,351 by admin 1/28/04 2:10:32 PM Reply	Better than Bush. Because a vote for Bush is a vote for the entire mess in power right now: the administration, the apparatchiks in the Pentagon, and the travesty of Congress headed by DeLay right now. If you don't vote against him, then you're implicitly condoning him. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #138,357 by mmoffitt 1/28/04 2:43:57 PM Reply	I know. It's just that, well, my very first job ever was working first for Congressman Mark Hannaford of California and then working for the Jimmy Carter for President campaign in 1976. Truman and Dewey, Nixon and Kennedy, Johnson and Goldwater, Carter and Ford, ... and now look at the differences. Today they're barely perceptible. bcnu, Mikem I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
Post #138,365 by ben_tilly 1/28/04 3:04:33 PM Reply	Yeah, I know :-( Goldwater, once the arch-conservative, preferred Gore in the 2000 election. Goldwater didn't change his views, the Republican Party did. :-( Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #138,387 by rcareaga 1/28/04 4:42:47 PM Reply	Goldwater-Gore, a match made in heaven ben_tilly laments Goldwater, once the arch-conservative, preferred Gore in the 2000 election. Goldwater didn't change his views, the Republican Party did. Actually, Goldwater remained neutral in the 2000 election, and was not heard to express a preference for either major party candidate for the excellent reason that even before the summer's nominating conventions he'd been dead for over two years. I do believe, though, that he would have detested Bush's grotesque cabal, and wouldn't have been shy about saying so. cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #138,394 by Another Scott 1/28/04 5:14:48 PM Reply	Ha! I thought there was something strange about BG-AG. :-)
Post #138,427 by ben_tilly 1/28/04 7:48:49 PM 1/28/04 7:49:33 PM Reply	Dang, must have been a piece of Clinton support And I'm ashamed to be so far wrong in my recollection. I remember reading, however, about how in his old age he came out and was an advocate for gay rights, legalized marijuana, etc. He was a conservative in the sense of, "Get the government off of our backs" and not religious fundamentalism. Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi] Edited by ben_tilly Jan. 28, 2004, 07:49:33 PM EST Expand All History
Post #138,391 by rcareaga 1/28/04 5:03:17 PM Reply	Re: Better than Bush. Our sainted admin points out the obvious (obvious to all, apparently, except friend mmoffitt, who obviously didn't smoke enough dope in his formative years if he can't figure this out) when he says If you don't vote against [Bush], then you're implicitly condoning him. A writer to the letters column of today's SF Chron makes the same point less economically but with a certain eloquence: Editor -- When this generation of Americans stands before the tribunal of history to answer for the crimes of the Bush regime, I can think of only three arguments we might make in our defense. The first two would excuse a child: One, that the events of Sept. 11, 2001, threw us into an unreasoning panic; two, that we were lied to so extravagantly and often that we began to believe that the lies were true. We, however, are adults. The third possible defense is that we did not know our leaders could be so callous, cruel, unjust and corrupt, and the vehemence of their assault on our moral values and democratic institutions caught us by surprise. This defense, of course, will only hold if we rise up now and drive them out of office. Otherwise, our condemnation will be assured and richly deserved. DANIEL GREEN Berkeley It could be futile, particularly if, as I strongly anticipate, this gang is preparing to commit massive electronic vote fraud should that prove to be what's needed to maintain themselves in power, but given what's at stake, 2004 is not the year to make a fetish of one's own imagined political virtue. To spurn the perceived lesser of two evils is, in this instance, to be complicit in gorging an evil incomparably more loathsome. Hold your nose if necessary, but make your vote count, and hope that we can force them to count the votes. cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #138,393 by mmoffitt 1/28/04 5:10:14 PM Reply	Heh. I'm not nearly so clueless. Despite not having rotted my brain matter with the non-therapeutic use of psycho-active medications while attending college. ...obvious to all, apparently, except friend mmoffitt... His point and yours are obvious to me. But only the most naive of naive would believe that casting my vote for anyone not wearing jack-boots in the state of Indiana is anything more than tilting at windmills. bcnu, Mikem I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
Post #138,395 by hnick 1/28/04 5:15:11 PM Reply	So it's a windmill. You got anything better to do? In a political context, of course. Everybody has something better to do than politics. A colonoscopy, while eerily similar, is probably better than politics.
Post #138,439 by Silverlock 1/28/04 8:51:52 PM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #138438 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=138438\|ICLRPD] ----------------------------------------- .sig pending
Post #138,396 by admin 1/28/04 5:17:05 PM Reply	There is such a thing... ... as making your voice heard. Sure, you may lose in that state, but perhaps not by so much this time. And a bit less the next. In fact, if everyone felt as you do, we'd never know if the balance of power in Indiana ever tipped. The possible majority who would vote non-Republican would just stay at home, convinced that their vote wouldn't count. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #138,406 by rcareaga 1/28/04 6:03:01 PM Reply	on the futility of voting in Indiana Even stipulating that Indiana's electors will inevitably be fed to the plutocrats, you will have the satisfaction (assuming that the Diebold plotters sensibly refrain from tampering with a sure thing and concentrate their electoral larcenies in the so-called "battleground states") of knowing that yours will be among the tens of millions of popular votes—and remember that the bad guys came out on the ass-end of half a million of these last time—that will be cast against the regime. Each tick in that total is a refutation, however tiny, of the mandate they claim. cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #138,415 by Ashton 1/28/04 7:17:59 PM Reply	As in, REDEFEAT BUSH IN '04 (if I could get that sticker..)
Post #138,416 by Another Scott 1/28/04 7:22:52 PM Reply	You're in luck. (7346 byte .gif) [image\|http://www.redefeatbush.com/images/store/bumpersticker.gif\|0\|ReDefeat Bush Bumper Sticker\|98\|200] Cheers, Scott.
Post #138,421 by deSitter 1/28/04 7:27:36 PM Reply	Re: You're in luck. (7346 byte .gif) That's the Texas (and NC) flag! Based of course on the 1st flag of the United States of 1861. -drl
Post #138,423 by a6l6e6x 1/28/04 7:36:36 PM 1/28/04 7:40:46 PM Reply	NC Flag, 4 KB [image\|http://www.enchantedlearning.com/usa/flags/northcarolina/northcarolinaflag.GIF\|\|\|\|] The Texas flag has red on the bottom and white on top. [image\|http://www.enchantedlearning.com/usa/flags/texas/texasflagsmall.GIF\|\|\|\|] Alex The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled. -- Plutarch Edited by a6l6e6x Jan. 28, 2004, 07:40:46 PM EST Expand All History
Post #138,429 by deSitter 1/28/04 7:58:13 PM Reply	Guess they each claimed 1/2 :) The FFOC had three bars, white in the middle :) BTW the one star is from the "Bonnie Blue Flag", which intially was used as a battle flag before Beauregard's famous variant on the St. Andrew cross. I see that Georgia has adopted another new flag, this one explicity based on the FFOC: [image\|http://www.flaginstitute.org/elements/fi_gifs/us-georgia2.gif\|\|\|\|] Now, this should be more objectionable than the original, as the Beauregard "battle flag" represented the Confederate soldier, who in the vast majority of cases owned no slaves, rather than the State, which officially sanctioned slave ownership. Bonnie Blue Flag: [image\|http://www.anyflag.com/history/bonnie.gif\|\|\|\|] The first recorded use of the lone star flag dates to 1810. On September 11, 1810 a troop of West Florida dragoons set out for the provincial capitol at Baton Rouge under this flag. They were joined by other republican forces and captured Baton Rouge, imprisoned the Governor and on September 23, 1810 raised their Bonnie Blue flag over the Fort of Baton Rouge. Three days later the president of the West Florida Convention, signed a Declaration of Independence and the flag became the emblem of a new republic. By December 10, the flag of the United States replaced the Bonnie Blue after President Madison issued a proclamation declaring West Florida under the jurisdiction of the Governor of the Louisiana Territory. With this rebellion in mind, this flag was used by the Republic of Texas from 1836 to 1839. On January 9, 1861 the convention of the People of Mississippi adopted an Ordinance of Secession. With this announcement the Bonnie Blue flag was raised over the capitol building in Jackson. Harry McCarthy was so inspired that he wrote a song entitled "The Bonnie Blue Flag" which became the second most popular patriotic song of the Confederacy. The Confederate government did not adopt this flag but the people did and the lone star flags were adopted in some form in five of the southern States that adopted new flags in 1861. The Texans in their way, stole it and renamed it the "Lone Star". -drl
Post #138,422 by Ashton 1/28/04 7:29:38 PM Reply	Gracias! time to swap in the Color cartridge.
Post #138,370 by a6l6e6x 1/28/04 3:17:39 PM Reply	Bad strategy. Vote for the lesser of two evils. You cetainly don't want Bush to claim a mandate. Also, there's a small chance of a Florida type situation where the vote is very close. Make it a larger crime to steal Indiana's vote. Alex Nobody will ever deprive the American people of the right to vote except the American people themselves - and the only way they could do this is by not voting. -- FDR, US President
Post #138,371 by mmoffitt 1/28/04 3:20:13 PM Reply	ROFL! "Steal Indiana's vote" :-D The last non-Republican candidate who carried the state of Indiana in a national election was...<drum roll>...Lyndon Johnson. I don't think I'm going to make a difference in the culturally vacuous, intellectually challenged corn field of Indiana. Thanks for the thought though :0) bcnu, Mikem I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
Post #138,372 by a6l6e6x 1/28/04 3:26:39 PM Reply	Vote anyway. Think of it as pissing on Quayle. The pause that refreshes. Alex The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled. -- Plutarch
Post #138,374 by hnick 1/28/04 3:38:27 PM Reply	Nifty I gather that we can expect you to quit bitching during the next 4 years of Bush, since you can't bring yourself to oppose him. Neither Lenin nor Marx are running. Get over it. You aren't going to like any of the choices. If you won't help prevent a travesty, then at least shut up when the aftermath sucks.
Post #138,375 by admin 1/28/04 3:41:12 PM Reply	Ditto. Not voting at all is just being part of the problem. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #138,378 by mmoffitt 1/28/04 3:59:02 PM 1/28/04 4:00:20 PM Reply	I know that's right. And that is what I've always held. But as I grow older it seems more an exercise in futility. The only winning Presidents I ever legally voted for were Bill Clinton (and I held my nose for that) and Al Gore (and the popular vote was overridden in a coup d'etat by the USSC). It's getting harder and harder to get motivated to flail into the wind. I probably will vote, my post aside. I always take the kids with me to vote. If democracy can survive/recover I want them to be a part of it. But with each successive year the differences between the paltry number of political parties we have here get smaller and smaller. bcnu, Mikem I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java. Edited by mmoffitt Jan. 28, 2004, 04:00:20 PM EST Expand All History
Post #138,380 by Silverlock 1/28/04 4:03:44 PM Reply	I'm voting against Bush Even if it's Leiberman. I still expect Bush to "win". Diebold has too much of an installed base. ----------------------------------------- .sig pending
Post #138,381 by mmoffitt 1/28/04 4:05:17 PM Reply	And that is what I'll likely end up doing. But it makes me ill. To think, a nation state of 300 million and this is the best we can come up with? And this system works? bcnu, Mikem I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
Post #138,420 by JayMehaffey 1/28/04 7:27:07 PM Reply	Depends I can't vote for Lieberman unless I'm allowed to take a barf bag into the voting booth with me. Anybody know the rules on that? Jay
Post #138,441 by Silverlock 1/28/04 8:57:38 PM Reply	Allowed But you would be better served by taking dramamine during the entire race. ----------------------------------------- .sig pending
Post #138,449 by boxley 1/28/04 9:35:06 PM Reply	jaysus, thats a hard pick lieberman bush? Only if lieberman repatriated the patriot act. thanx, bill same old crap, con artists ripping off fools. Ah, hell, Catholic Church it start off that way. They All do. Jesus probably had three walnut shells one pea, then he's dead and can't be questioned, Gabriel Dupre questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #138,397 by admin 1/28/04 5:18:14 PM Reply	whine If you don't vote, you're part of the problem. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #138,443 by Silverlock 1/28/04 8:59:49 PM Reply	Should be pasted on all overpasses. ----------------------------------------- .sig pending
Post #138,626 by jb4 1/29/04 2:16:14 PM Reply	may I rephrase? "If you don't vote, it's your fault!" jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #138,392 by danreck 1/28/04 5:04:52 PM Reply	And miss out on the fun of picking between a rich white Yale graduate from Vermont, Texas or Massachusettes. There is so much difference between them... Just a few thoughts, Danno
Post #138,419 by Ashton 1/28/04 7:26:40 PM Reply	C'mon Danno - that's pure Bafflegab Schizz Why not note: hey, they're all bipeds; can't be a THING much different about these beasts. {Sheesh} So then, Dad: Ya gonna see just How Effectively those shiny new 'tactical' nukes perform? (They'll be in delivery mode, ya know.. within just days of the election computer re-tabulations.) Let's see.. can The Draft be far behind? And since it's OK to execute 17 yos in certain States, WTF not Draft the suckers for Freedom & Truth at ~ the same age? As in, Pshaw ;-)

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