Post #136,146
1/16/04 1:19:32 PM
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What are you smoking?
"Virgin at marriage" is an explicit shame-inducing state (set up and controlled by religion, as Andrew pointed out). If you were female and weren't a virgin when you were married, you were considered unclean.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #136,156
1/16/04 1:30:36 PM
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Re: What are you smoking?
This was never actually a virtue - I asked my Dad about the attitudes of his day. He said there were always loose girls, but even "nice" girls would "put out", and this was in a small Georgia town. During his war experience as a 19-23 year old in the states (E. St. Louis, Florida, Nevada) and later England, having a fling was as easy as the asking. The old saw for a successful liberty was "stewed, screwed, and tatooed". The key thing was secrecy. Very little has changed other than the age at which people become sexualized and the ease with which it is discussed. You can pretty much discard all religious banter as this was just as ignored in the past as it is now, only people are far more willing to admit it.
[link|http://www.jackinworld.com/library/articles/kinsey.html|http://www.jackinwor...icles/kinsey.html]
50 percent of women and 67 percent of men had premarital sex in the 40s - and this was based on who would admit it.
Even less talked about than POMWS (plain old man-woman sex) is chicken-choking, a nearly universal behavior that did not even come up in movies.
-drl
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Post #136,160
1/16/04 1:36:11 PM
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Re: What are you smoking?
The key thing was secrecy. Because if you weren't secret about it, you were given to feel shame. Thanks for making my point. Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #136,161
1/16/04 1:41:47 PM
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Re: What are you smoking?
It wasn't "shame" - it was something that you didn't talk about, like picking your nose (the Kinsey report has small print that states "97% of men have dug for gold, and most succeeded"). That's not shame, it's "good manners". Among friends, I'm sure that my Dad and his pals talked about nothing more than nailing girls. Well, maybe fishing and hunting.
-drl
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Post #136,163
1/16/04 1:46:22 PM
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No, you're wrong.
Maybe by the 50s/60s, but back in Victorian days (and before) it was shame. If you were discovered to be less than virginal, you were an outcast and not considered to be marriage material.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #136,166
1/16/04 1:57:47 PM
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Re: No, you're wrong.
Then why were the streets of London and Paris crawling with prostitutes, who were mainly ignored by the law, unless it was to regulate them the same way as the Queen's Pint? The idea of a staid, uptight Victorian age is a complete myth. Cocaine and opium use were widespread among the upper classes (who could afford the leisure time to enjoy them). Free, non-binding sex was everywhere - most likely including pedophilia and other "perversions".
[link|http://www.umd.umich.edu/casl/hum/eng/classes/434/charweb/zablocki3.htm|http://www.umd.umich...web/zablocki3.htm]
[link|http://www.umd.umich.edu/casl/hum/eng/classes/434/charweb/zablocki1.htm|http://www.umd.umich...web/zablocki1.htm]
A female unescorted immigrant to the US was tacitly assumed to be a prostitute.
-drl
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Post #136,167
1/16/04 1:59:50 PM
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For the men, not the women.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #136,170
1/16/04 2:10:57 PM
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Exactly!
In the Victorian Age, you were either considered a proper virgin or a loose woman. The loose women were all over, granted, but the prostitutes of that day were still looked down upon with shame. In fact, IF I remember correctly, there were even establishments which wouldn't allow prostitutes to enter or be served there, or frequent the place of business.
However, the men never viewed the prostitutes with a shameful-view, other than when questioned about it by wives or other upright abiding citizens. So they essentially looked down on the loose women only when it suited their needs. BUT, if one of THEIR daughters behaved as such, the men were deeply ashamed of their child and looked down on them.
Nightowl >8#
"It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman
"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
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Post #136,168
1/16/04 2:03:31 PM
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Re: No, you're wrong.
I agree. Even in my day, the 70's/80's, having premarital sex was considered to be a shameful act, by just about everyone I knew that was older. Now, the kids themselves, well that was different, but the adults in that age, considered it shameful and that you had "ruined" yourself for marriage, and all sorts of things.
Nightowl >8#
"It is understanding that gives us an ability to have peace. When we understand the other fellow's viewpoint, and he understands ours, then we can sit down and work out our differences." Harry S. Truman
"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." Timothy Bentley
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