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New Re: HTML + DOM + JS is a fricken mess
You are assuming that JS+DUM can handle every new requirement and that SCGUI can't. This assumption has not been verified.
And you are asserting that DOM/JS cannot handle any requirement, despite the fact that I used them to easily do exactly the same sorts of things you claim that SCGUI is required to do.

So we stick with the gummy mix of multiple protocols and crashing JS that has ended up in current browsers, or do we look at remote biz GUI requirements and make something optimized for them instead of the overly-bent HTML-dirived protocols?


Or do we perhaps do some actual design and architecture using the currently available, proven tools, and actually create a usable solution instead of attempting to (once again) rewrite the wheel?

You: "Fortran + Cobol are good enough and in common use, why move on?"


One word: XBASE.

Don't throw stones, unless you've already located a good real estate agent to find a new glass house.

Change is only good when there is a need. Fortran and Cobol have serious limitations in certain areas. You have not demonstrated that DOM/JS has the limitations you claim to be surmounting with SCGUI.
Regards,

-scott anderson
New starting a new road when traffic is sufficiently high
>> that I used them to easily do exactly the same sorts of things you claim that SCGUI is required to do.......Change is only good when there is a need. <<

I never said "required".

Anyhow, the crux of the problem comes down to:

1. Is the need for remote GUI's common

2. Are existing tools/protocols sufficient to address #1

If a need is not common, then a "good enough" solution is often sufficient. However, IMO #1 is high. Thus, the industry needs something *dedidated* to that task.

Nobody here seems to want to claim that JS+DOM is near an OPTIMUM remote GUI solution. Thus, there seems to be an implicit admission that JS+DOM is not the ideal for remote GUI's. Our difference seems to hover around #1, the frequency of need.

In a good many B-to-B and intranet projects I dealt with, management keeps wanting the browser to be "regular" GUI. The arrow just keeps pointing back that way. They want data grids, dialog boxes, pop-up error messages, menu bars, etc. The need is plenty high enough to warrent protocols dedicated to that task.
________________
oop.ismad.com
New Re: starting a new road when traffic is sufficiently high
1. Is the need for remote GUI's common


Yes.

2. Are existing tools/protocols sufficient to address #1


Yes.
Regards,

-scott anderson
New I have to disagree with your #2 response
________________
oop.ismad.com
New No, you don't "have to". You just do so anyway.
For no better reason than that you're stupid and obstinate, as far as I can see.


   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
     Stopping the browser throbber - (admin) - (159)
         "This is the page that never ends... - (Fearless Freep) - (2)
             Prescient - (kmself) - (1)
                 Just have someone call - (imric)
         Infinite content or just infinite wait? - (tseliot) - (139)
             Wrong angle :-) - (admin) - (138)
                 Ahhhh. Circumventing another man's app by DESIGN. - (tseliot) - (137)
                     Don't control the deployment that much. - (admin) - (136)
                         Well, sure. - (tseliot) - (3)
                             One connection per session regardless. - (admin) - (2)
                                 Feh. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                     ROFL - (admin)
                         Auto refresh? - (tablizer) - (131)
                             Re: Auto refresh? - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                 ...which should be subject to user override - (kmself) - (1)
                                     We are talking B-to-B or intranet, right? - (tablizer)
                             The application uses auto refresh now. - (admin) - (127)
                                 Why is auto-refresh not satisfactory? - (tablizer) - (125)
                                     Because I work on actual large scale applications. - (admin) - (124)
                                         depends on needed refresh rate - (tablizer) - (123)
                                             Re: depends on needed refresh rate - (admin) - (122)
                                                 Nothing is truely "instant" - (tablizer) - (121)
                                                     Re: Nothing is truely "instant" - (admin) - (95)
                                                         JavaScript but *not* client-side script? - (tablizer) - (94)
                                                             Re: JavaScript but *not* client-side script? - (admin) - (93)
                                                                 that is still client-side script/applet - (tablizer) - (92)
                                                                     Fundamental disconnect - (Yendor)
                                                                     Re: that is still client-side script/applet - (admin) - (90)
                                                                         "generic" by what scope? - (tablizer) - (89)
                                                                             Re: "generic" by what scope? - (admin) - (88)
                                                                                 security risks - (tablizer) - (87)
                                                                                     Re: security risks - (pwhysall) - (77)
                                                                                         Turing-complete == more-problems-complete - (tablizer) - (76)
                                                                                             Re: Turing-complete == more-problems-complete - (pwhysall) - (48)
                                                                                                 Using 3 protocols is just plain silly, admit it! - (tablizer) - (47)
                                                                                                     Patently false: DHTML is not the same as DOM - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                         I did not say it was - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                             JS/DOM is not the same as DHTML. - (admin)
                                                                                                     Patently false: three different protocols - (admin) - (22)
                                                                                                         How does that make any difference? Browser still deals w/ 3 -NT - (tablizer) - (21)
                                                                                                             How does that make any difference? Developer still deals w/1 -NT - (admin) - (20)
                                                                                                                 NOPE, 2 - (tablizer) - (19)
                                                                                                                     Same in SCGUI. - (admin) - (18)
                                                                                                                         odd counting - (tablizer) - (17)
                                                                                                                             Re: odd counting - yes, you do count oddly. - (admin) - (16)
                                                                                                                                 assumption missing - (tablizer) - (15)
                                                                                                                                     That's even nuttier for you - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                                                                                         Clarification - (pwhysall)
                                                                                                                                     Re: assumption missing - (pwhysall) - (12)
                                                                                                                                         Cytrix is NOT latency-friendly, and.... - (tablizer) - (11)
                                                                                                                                             Yes it bloody well is! - (pwhysall) - (10)
                                                                                                                                                 HTTP is important - (tablizer) - (9)
                                                                                                                                                     Bollocks - (pwhysall) - (8)
                                                                                                                                                         I saw it happen - (tablizer) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                             Get a room guys... -NT - (bepatient)
                                                                                                                                                             And that proves what? - (pwhysall)
                                                                                                                                                             One last thing - (pwhysall)
                                                                                                                                                         Actually Bryce has a point here - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                             But I'm wondering how relevant it is. - (static) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                 It is at least halfway - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                     Not quite irrelevent... - (addison)
                                                                                                     Patently false: HTML/DOM/JS requires full page reloads - (admin) - (4)
                                                                                                         Sorry, I misread it. - (tablizer) - (3)
                                                                                                             Once again: strawman alert - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                                 so you say - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                                     Re: so you say - (admin)
                                                                                                     Only one protocol in use - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                                                                         wrapping is not ridding - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                             Well I never - (pwhysall)
                                                                                                     Patently false: SCGUI is immune to versioning problems - (admin) - (9)
                                                                                                         dancing widgets - (tablizer) - (8)
                                                                                                             SCGUI: moving the complexity to the server. - (admin) - (7)
                                                                                                                 VB, Delphi, Powerbuilder, etc. - (tablizer) - (6)
                                                                                                                     Once again, where is the value-add? - (admin) - (5)
                                                                                                                         same arguments over and over - (tablizer) - (4)
                                                                                                                             I'll agree with that. - (admin) - (3)
                                                                                                                                 So at least you agree that they want GUI's - (tablizer) - (2)
                                                                                                                                     Re: So at least you agree that they want GUI's - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                                                                                         and YOU don't have to present code examples? -NT - (tablizer)
                                                                                                     Patently false: DOM/JS is too complex - (admin) - (1)
                                                                                                         "Come here! I'll bite you to death" -NT - (pwhysall)
                                                                                                     No, it's not. - (static)
                                                                                             Re: Turing-complete == more-problems-complete - (admin) - (26)
                                                                                                 The "assembler" argument again - (tablizer) - (21)
                                                                                                     And your proof is? - (admin) - (20)
                                                                                                         first choice? really really? first? - (tablizer) - (19)
                                                                                                             Er, gotcha? - (admin) - (18)
                                                                                                                 Lame first choice - (tablizer) - (17)
                                                                                                                     Sez you. - (admin) - (16)
                                                                                                                         Grid? - (tablizer) - (15)
                                                                                                                             Re: Grid? - (admin) - (14)
                                                                                                                                 more to grids than that - (tablizer) - (13)
                                                                                                                                     Re: more to grids than that - (admin) - (12)
                                                                                                                                         Frame == Grid? Egad! - (tablizer) - (11)
                                                                                                                                             What's "Half-ess"? Half an S? -NT - (pwhysall) - (10)
                                                                                                                                                 Reply re: S/2 - (tablizer) - (9)
                                                                                                                                                     Don't swear then - (pwhysall) - (8)
                                                                                                                                                         anyhow, anybdy still wanna defend frames as grid substute? -NT - (tablizer) - (7)
                                                                                                                                                             Not frames, frame. - (admin) - (6)
                                                                                                                                                                 problems with that approach - (tablizer) - (5)
                                                                                                                                                                     Nobody is defending "frames == grid" after all these weeks - (tablizer) - (4)
                                                                                                                                                                         Bryce - (pwhysall) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                                             I will bet you $100.00 - (tablizer) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                                 I don't care - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                                     And stop it with the "listen" sh8t - (tablizer)
                                                                                                 Asynchronous xmit - (ChrisR) - (3)
                                                                                                     Re: Asynchronous xmit - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                         Thanks... - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                                                                                             We're using it for updates... - (admin)
                                                                                     Re: security risks - (admin) - (8)
                                                                                         Skinny client, skinny needs - (tablizer) - (7)
                                                                                             Re: Skinny client, skinny needs - (pwhysall) - (6)
                                                                                                 The "assembler" argument again - (tablizer) - (5)
                                                                                                     Your "point of view" - (admin) - (4)
                                                                                                         I dn't care whthr it's new nor not. It is better than JS+DOM -NT - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                             You have yet to demonstrate that. -NT - (admin)
                                                                                                         Re: Your "point of view" - (addison) - (1)
                                                                                                             "Plug-in"? Uhm, isn't that called an X Server...? -NT - (CRConrad)
                                                     I can see I'm going to have to go back to this again. - (admin) - (24)
                                                         This is *not* an OO battle.......yet - (tablizer) - (23)
                                                             I think I'd give up, Bryce. - (static)
                                                             Funny... I could have sworn you said: - (admin) - (21)
                                                                 "doable" is not the criteria I am using. - (tablizer) - (20)
                                                                     ROFL - (admin) - (19)
                                                                         not GUI. QED - (tablizer) - (18)
                                                                             Nothing like answering the question, eh? - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                                                 and you did NOT answer my question - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                     Because... - (pwhysall)
                                                                             Ideal? No. Better than SCGUI? Yes. - (admin) - (14)
                                                                                 HTML + DOM + JS is a fricken mess - (tablizer) - (13)
                                                                                     A little challenge - (pwhysall) - (6)
                                                                                         user interface - (tablizer) - (5)
                                                                                             Re: user interface - (pwhysall) - (4)
                                                                                                 Because nobody wants to use that crap for GUI's - (tablizer) - (3)
                                                                                                     Re: Because nobody wants to use that crap for GUI's - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                                                                         Forgot one. - (pwhysall)
                                                                                                         sloppy counting - (tablizer)
                                                                                     A little challenge - (pwhysall)
                                                                                     Re: HTML + DOM + JS is a fricken mess - (admin) - (4)
                                                                                         starting a new road when traffic is sufficiently high - (tablizer) - (3)
                                                                                             Re: starting a new road when traffic is sufficiently high - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                 I have to disagree with your #2 response -NT - (tablizer) - (1)
                                                                                                     No, you don't "have to". You just do so anyway. -NT - (CRConrad)
                                 I'll have a large anchovy pizza, please. -NT - (pwhysall)
         Can you replace the frame with server-side push? -NT - (ben_tilly) - (6)
             Meaning? - (admin) - (5)
                 I thought it did but... - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                     The object is to avoid opening a connection every second. - (admin) - (3)
                         40 per second? Faster than a MOVIE - (tablizer) - (2)
                             Re: 40 per second? Faster than a MOVIE - (admin) - (1)
                                 From the mouth of.. erm.. babes. - (addison)
         Synchronized browsing? - (ChrisR) - (4)
             That might not be a bad idea... - (admin) - (2)
                 Simpler than that... - (ChrisR) - (1)
                     Gah. :-) - (admin)
             I just said that (above)!! Copycat! :D -NT - (tseliot)
         Re: Stopping the browser throbber - (dshellman) - (3)
             Re: Stopping the browser throbber - (admin) - (2)
                 Re: Stopping the browser throbber - (dshellman) - (1)
                     Re: Stopping the browser throbber (new thread) - (admin)

The aliens look like spiders...
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