Post #12,589
10/10/01 5:49:36 AM
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'Righteousness' is often evil
As - whenever personal ego confuses itself with revealed truth - and tries to impose judgments on others from that bogus source. (AKA - sanctimony)
(I'll grant though, 'right-intending' beats 'awfulness-intending'. ;-) Humility beats either 'intention'.
And Sufi stories are much more fun than all those begats and thou-shalts..
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Post #12,619
10/10/01 11:15:43 AM
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begats and begets
obviously you have never sat down with a 2 Yupiks vaguely related who would make a hobbit scream with boredom as they begat and begot over poke fish, crackersand tea :)
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #12,654
10/10/01 12:58:49 PM
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It is all a matter of perspective
Those that are Evil, may not even notice it. The Terrorists, for example, think that they are Righteousness. That killing innocents is justified because the country those innocents live in had sent their troops to attack their countrymen or put foot on their soil to defend their homeland or put an embargo on one of their countries because that other country was invading another countries.
So basically the US was playing "Police Officer" and the Terrorists are playing "Ganstas" trying to get revenge.
This is a classic character trait that some Super Villains in Comic Books have. They always think they are Righteous and that the good guys are the ones doing evil or trying to spoil their fun. Take, for example, The Joker, he thinks that everything is a joke and that he should be allowed to play his jokes on the public. That Batman is just some Killjoy without a sense of humor that is trying to ruin his fun. Or Doctor Doom, who feels that the Fantastic Four and Reed Richards have persecuted him and foiled his experiments. Or Lex Luthor who feels that Superman gets in his way to achieve greatness. Of course they all want to rule the world, etc.
Picking up the pieces of my broken life.
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Post #12,669
10/10/01 1:32:22 PM
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So, sort of like "Forgive them, they know not what they do"?
Thanks for the input.
The real point of mentioning Proverbs 28 is that it discusses how to face life boldly.
28:1 translates as the righteous person can face life boldly; the wicked can only fear.
(you shall know the wicked by the fruits of their labor. Terrorist's fruits are murder and destruction)
28:2 Many princes (officials) are necessary to curb human evil. Both understanding (sound judgment) and knowledge (correct information) are necessary for right to prevail.
I hope that helps those that couldn't understand why I made the initial post above.
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Post #12,697
10/10/01 3:37:52 PM
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Only the wicked fear?
I think that even the Righteous can fear, but it is how we react to fear that defines us. The wicked will strike out at anything they fear, the Righteous can handle their fear and overcome it eventually.
A friend of mine told me that he had no fear, then a few months later he killed himself. The only people I know that had no fear, had killed themselves. No fear of what happens after their death. We can only pray for them now.
Picking up the pieces of my broken life.
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Post #12,700
10/10/01 3:42:58 PM
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Yes, they know not what they do
that is a perfect example. They feel like they are doing the right thing, but in reality they are not aware that they are going against God and the order of the universe, or whatever. The Roman people, the Jewish people, of that time that Jesus was killed, had no idea what they were doing or who the man on the cross was. But even then, Jesus asked for their forgiveness.
The only part of the New Testiment that Jesus advocated violence was throwing the money changers out of the temple. Your can ignore the book of Rvelations because it hasn't happened yet and will only come about because Humanity messed up so badly that Jesus had to come back to fix things. But anyway, true Christians would not have gotten involed in the Cruisades, the Inquisition, because Jesus did not advocate those things. It was a mistake made by Christians of those times. They did not know what they were doing, they thought they were doing good. But in reality they gave Christianity a bad name.
Picking up the pieces of my broken life.
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Post #12,705
10/10/01 3:49:55 PM
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Actually
Neither the Crusades nor the Inquisition were 'misguided Christians' who didn't know what they were doing. The Crusdaes were simply a land grab using the "Holy Lands" as an excuse. IIRC, more mid-east Christians were killed than any other group. The Inquisition was a political power play. I believe it was reluctantly given support by the church early on when they didn't know how far it would go. Like the Anglican split from the Catholic Church, it was a strange mixture of politics and religion by people far more focused on the politics while using the religion as a facade
Problem with Christianity is that anyone can claim to be a Christian and then their actions reflect on all Christians and Christ. But as Jesus said "You will know them by their fruit"
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #12,703
10/10/01 3:47:47 PM
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Which bible?
Which bible are you using?
The translation of 28:1 seems OK. Though I'm not sure how it applys to the terrorists, since I can't see how you could not describe their actions as bold.
The translation for 28:2 you give seems off though. The bibles I looked at all ran the other way on that verse, implying that many rulers are bad and that a single, wise ruler is good.
There is a very good site at [link|http://bible.gospelcom.net/|The Bible Gateway] that lets you compare the same verse in different bibles.
Jay
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Post #12,709
10/10/01 3:58:48 PM
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Yes, which bible?
Try the [link|http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/|New American Bible] sometime, seems to be different in many ways from the King James Version. Try [link|http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm28.htm|PSALM 28] from the New American Bible, verses the King James Version of [link|http://aol.bartleby.com/108/19/28.html#1|PSLAM 28] NAB:
1
Of David. To you, LORD, I call; my Rock, do not be deaf to me. If you fail to answer me, I will join those who go down to the pit.
2
1 Hear the sound of my pleading when I cry to you, lifting my hands toward your holy place.
3
Do not drag me off with the wicked, with those who do wrong, Who speak peace to their neighbors though evil is in their hearts.
4
Repay them for their deeds, for the evil that they do. For the work of their hands repay them; give them what they deserve.
5
They pay no heed to the LORD'S works, to the deeds of God's hands. God will tear them down, never to be rebuilt.
6
2 Blessed be the LORD, who has heard the sound of my pleading.
7
The LORD is my strength and my shield, in whom my heart trusted and found help. So my heart rejoices; with my song I praise my God.
8
3 LORD, you are the strength of your people, the saving refuge of your anointed king.
9
Save your people, bless your inheritance; feed and sustain them forever!
KJV:
1 Unto thee will I cry, O LORD my rock;
be not silent to me:
lest, if thou be silent to me,
I become like them that go down into the pit.
2 Hear the voice of my supplications, when I cry unto thee,
when I lift up my hands toward thy holy oracle.
3 Draw me not away with the wicked,
and with the workers of iniquity,
which speak peace to their neighbors,
but mischief is in their hearts.
4 Give them according to their deeds,
and according to the wickedness of their endeavors:
give them after the work of their hands;
render to them their desert.
5 Because they regard not the works of the LORD,
nor the operation of his hands,
he shall destroy them, and not build them up.
6 Blessed be the LORD,
because he hath heard the voice of my supplications.
7 The LORD is my strength and my shield;
my heart trusted in him, and I am helped:
therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth;
and with my song will I praise him.
8 The LORD is their strength,
and he is the saving strength of his anointed.
9 Save thy people, and bless thine inheritance:
feed them also, and lift them up for ever.
Picking up the pieces of my broken life.
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Post #12,755
10/10/01 7:20:35 PM
10/11/01 12:14:28 AM
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Re: Which bible?
The New KJV, published by Nelson, personal study version.
My International bible, Scholars' edition from 1903, published by The John C. Wiston Co, has the same basic verses.
Thanks for asking these very good questions. I'll try to answer them as best I can.
"The translation of 28:1 seems OK. Though I'm not sure how it applys to the terrorists, since I can't see how you could not describe their actions as bold."
You might consider the actions by the foot soldiers as bold but other have called them cowardly, especially since the leaders who sent them to their deaths didn't shed any of their blood in the action. Where are the terrorists now? Hiding in the darkness in fear and anger. The entire world is against them and they are not welcome in any country. bin Laden even threatened that America will not have peace until Palestine has peace. Apparently he thinks Muslems don't have peace and have lots to fear. If they could get rid of the terrorists and their civil wars, they'd have much less to fear.
" The translation for 28:2 you give seems off though. The bibles I looked at all ran the other way on that verse, implying that many rulers are bad and that a single, wise ruler is good."
I don't see many rulers as perceived as bad in this verse:
[Because of the trangressions of a land, many are its princes, but by a man of understanding and knowledge, Right will be prolonged]
Many princes are needed to reduce human evil, yet also needed is understanding and knowledge, whether supplied by one person or many people working together. Maybe the wisdom and knowledge might even be supplied by one or more of the prophets in the religious texts available to us? (or from some other form?)
P.S. Yes, I may be stretching things a bit but in the long run (and with your insights) I might just discover the truth. Thanks. (:
P.S. II - Blessed are the peacemakers (Matthew 5:9.)
Edited by brettj
Oct. 11, 2001, 12:14:28 AM EDT
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Post #12,833
10/11/01 12:37:03 AM
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I can see
I can see how you might read 28:2 that way from just the NKJV. But I would still read it the other way. Rather then saying that a land that is in disorder needs many rulers, I would read it as saying that a land that is in disorder will go through many rulers.
This is clearly what the old KJV authors thought when they translated it this way When there is moral rot within a nation, its government topples easily. But with wise and knowledgeable leaders, there is stability.
Youngs Literal has it like this When a country is rebellious, it has many rulers, but a man of understanding and knowledge maintains order.
Most give the second part as refering to a single leader, but a few do render it in the plural.
As for 28:1, I can't see much cowardly about the actions of the terrorists. The only part I would call cowardly is the way that Osma Bin Laden is praising the attack, but hasn't actually taken credit for it. Considering the kind of military force against them, hiding is the only sensible option open to them.
Jay
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Post #12,840
10/11/01 1:24:57 AM
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Oh, saw, can you see?
A land going through turmoil may go through many leaders, but also will go through many citizens as well.
A company in turmoil will go through many leaders and lay off at least 10% of it's employees, mostly the ones that helped stop the company from going all the way into the crapper. PHBs can ruin a company and suck the life out of a company faster than a Black Hole can. Weap and cry for such a company, they will lose their talented employees which shall quit before management figured out that it is management that is the problem and not the employees quitting. But rather than lay off the bad managers, they keep laying off the worker bees and the people that are not making the big bone-headed mistakes that can sink a company.
Picking up the pieces of my broken life.
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Post #12,871
10/11/01 10:09:15 AM
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There is value in seeing it both ways.
I see why you questioned my translation.
I was sort of looking at the verses with a global perspective (the entire land).
Many princes are needed in order to curb human evil.
Yes, evil leaders will fall but together the group of princes with enforce justice.
Does that help you to see it from the perspective I was coming from?
Now I have two perspectives. (:
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Post #12,712
10/10/01 4:03:33 PM
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I think you need to retake Bin Laden 101.
Hi, The Terrorists, for example, think that they are Righteousness. That killing innocents is justified because the country those innocents live in had sent their troops to attack their countrymen or put foot on their soil to defend their homeland or put an embargo on one of their countries because that other country was invading another countries.You're assuming they think that innocents live in America. Bin Laden doesn't. [link|http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/miller.html|"Greetings, America. My Name is Osama bin Laden..."] Civilians?
"We do not differentiate between those dressed in military uniforms and civilians; they are all targets in this fatwa." Bin Laden argued that American outrage at attacks on American civilians constitutes a great double standard.
"American history does not distinguish between civilians and military, not even women and children. They are the ones who used bombs against Nagasaki. Can these bombs distinguish between infants and military? America does not have a religion that will prevent it from destroying all people."
Bin Laden believes that what we consider to be terrorism is just the amount of violence required to get the attention of the American people. His aim is to get Americans to consider whether continued support of Israel is worth the bloodshed he promises.
"So we tell the Americans as people," bin Laden said softly, "and we tell the mothers of soldiers and American mothers in general that if they value their lives and the lives of their children, to find a nationalistic government that will look after their interests and not the interests of the Jews. The continuation of tyranny will bring the fight to America, as Ramzi Yousef and others did. This is my message to the American people: to look for a serious government that looks out for their interests and does not attack others, their lands, or their honor. And my word to American journalists is not to ask why we did that but ask what their government has done that forced us to defend ourselves."
His last words to the camera were, "It is our duty to lead people to the light." See, according to him, murdering Americans is good for America. :-( Cheers, Scott.
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