Post #123,433
10/30/03 10:19:17 AM
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Re: Taxing credulity
I wrote:
literally billions of files that needed translating from existing formats -- very doubtful -- does this require further explanation?
Karsten wrote:
That's on the order of 4,000 documents per employee. With file proliferation and a complex operation, that's a credible figure.
I wrote:
transitioning 260,000 desktops -- this does not belong on the litany of complaints -- the company had decided to this already, regardless of the Novell-NT issue
Karsten wrote:
No, and this is important, so I'll type slowly for you:
The company had no choice but to make the upgrade. Microsoft "forced a large multi-national oil company to eliminate all the Novell servers, and move to NT, as Micro$oft refused to sell them 260,000 upgraded copies of legacy MS Windows and Office unless they did so." What part of illegal coercion don't you understand?
end quotes
MS 'refused' to sell upgraded copies of Windows and Office
this implies that they were using Windows and Office (some version or other) already
if this is true this casts doubts on the 'literally billions' of docs needing format translation
using the one, two, many system of counting, this would imply around 12,000 documents per employee
I'm assuming that they were in some Office format or another because of the word 'upgraded' in the original post
even many WordPerfect, Lotus 1-2-3 etc docs are openable by Office apps so I still doubt the billions
to return to the 260,000 upgraded copies of Office and Windows -- these were what the company wanted to buy, otherwise MS's refusal to sell has no meaning
thus they had already chosen to make changes to 260,000 desktops for their own business reasons -- good or other
therefore the costs associated with that decision can not be blamed on illegal coercion from MS
dumping the Novell servers is really the only issue related to any illegal behavior by MS
As far as I know there are no versions of Windows and Office that prevent use of Novell servers
so they could have bought 1600 NT server licenses and parked them if they didn't want them
You have also ignored the 'form' of the coercion
they 'refused' to sell unless they bought something else
was there a package price?
a discount that swayed management?
A
Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET
All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM
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Post #123,496
10/30/03 5:08:56 PM
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Re: Taxing credulity
First: The upgrade was cooerced. There was no option to purchase needed additional licenses without purchasing unnecessary upgrades to all systems. I'll also note that you ask for evidence, then gainsay it. So: you're calling me and Mr. Rheinlander liars? Is that it? \r\n\r\n File conversions and retraining costs apply to the option of switching to an alternate office suite / operating environment. This is what would have been incurred Plan B (switching to a non-Microsoft suite and/or OS) were elected. Plan C is, of course, the forced upgrade. Plan A was the option prohibited by Microsoft: retain existing infrastructure and aquire additional software. As the original post makes clear: nuke Novell, purchase 260,000 upgrades, and buy a fleet of helicoptors was cheaper than the option of moving away from Microsoft. \r\n\r\n Of course, we wouldn't expect you to read with comprehension. \r\n\r\n And you flat out lie: the company did not need to transition 260,000 dekstops. It was attempting to upgrade them and was refused the upgrades unless Novell were banished. \r\n\r\n Your comments suggest that forcing aquisition of sufficient numbers of Microsoft server licenses to replace 1,600 Novell instances is somehow acceptable business practices. Is this a valid interpretation of your comments, Andrea? If not, please clarify. \r\n\r\n And as a clue to you: [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/AyeWeeCodes|Wee Codes]. Particularly [quote\\]The quote tag[quote\\]. Or <blockquote type="cite">blockquote</blockquote>. --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #123,595
10/31/03 8:02:48 PM
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Re: Taxing credulity
I'll concede the points in the 2nd paragraph of your last post
however when you accuse me of flat out lying that is absurd
the original document said that MS refused to sell them 260,000 upgraded copies of Windows and Office (no legacy word in sight, although that is one of your obsessions)unless....
that statement can only have meaning if that company intended to buy them in the first place
if they intended to buy them in the 1st place, they must have wanted them
if they didn't want them, then MS's refusal to sell wouldn't bother them
the coercion discussed related to dumping Novell
I merely inquired as to the form of the alleged coercion
taken the way you see it, this would be a clearcut example of illegally leveraging the monopoly
much clearer that the stuff about the browser, middleware, Real and other issues that require a great deal of interpretation (and formed the basis of the govt case against MS)
it could be that the co. never reported its victimization to the authorities
anti-MS folks might say they were 'scared' or 'intimidated'
others might say they were bought off
in any case the story is apochryphal or perhaps anecdotal at best
A
you can call me Andrea all you want but I still won't call you Karsie-Warsie
Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET
All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM
Reggae, African and Caribbean Music
[link|http://wxxe.org|Tune In]
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Post #123,978
11/4/03 1:03:14 AM
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Umm... that's the point
they wanted the desktops and office, but wanted to keep their novell servers. MSFT refused to sell them the desktops and office unless they also got rid of the novell servers.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #124,868
11/9/03 11:47:20 PM
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Concede the points
I'll concede the points in the 2nd paragraph of your last post \r\n\r\n I could say that one out of six ain't bad. But I'd be lying. \r\n\r\n however when you accuse me of flat out lying that is absurd \r\n\r\n It's useful to know, in dealing with you, that "lying" is "truth". \r\n\r\n \r\nthe original document said that MS refused to sell them 260,000 upgraded copies of Windows and Office (no legacy word in sight, although that is one of your obsessions)unless.... \r\n\r\nthat statement can only have meaning if that company intended to buy them in the first place \r\n \r\n\r\n Just out of curiosity, and certainly in no expectation of a rational or consistent answer, I'd be curious as to how you interpret the following statement: \r\n\r\n \r\n\r\nI sat across the table from Microsoft as they forced a large multi-national \r\noil company to eliminate all the Novell servers, and move to NT, as \r\nMicro$oft refused to sell them 260,000 upgraded copies of Windows and \r\nOffice unless they did so.\r\n \r\n \r\n\r\n \r\nif they intended to buy them in the 1st place, they must have wanted them\r\nif they didn't want them, then MS's refusal to sell wouldn't bother them \r\n\r\nthe coercion discussed related to dumping Novell\r\nI merely inquired as to the form of the alleged coercion<?p>\r\n \r\n\r\n The refusal to sell A unless B were also purchased and C eliminated, at an alternative cost of D.. \r\n\r\n \r\n- A == 260,000 Windows desktops.
\r\n- B == Windows servers to replace 1,300 Novell servers.
\r\n- C == 1,300 Novell servers.
\r\n- D == retraining and migration costs for a quarter-million employees and billions of documents.
\r\n \r\n\r\n \r\ntaken the way you see it, this would be a clearcut example of illegally leveraging the monopoly\r\n \r\n\r\n Indeed. It is. \r\n\r\n \r\nit could be that the co. never reported its victimization to the authorities\r\nanti-MS folks might say they were 'scared' or 'intimidated'\r\nothers might say they were bought off\r\n \r\n\r\n ...or all of the above. Microsoft's sales literature is replete with references to selling to decisionmakers, not technical staff. [link|http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/business/97/10/23/compaq-microsoft.2-0.html|And threatening customers with withholding products or preferential licensing term]. \r\n\r\n \r\nin any case the story is apochryphal or perhaps anecdotal at best\r\n \r\n\r\n Another lie. It's [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=123498|substantially documented and independently verified]. \r\n\r\n \r\nyou can call me Andrea all you want but I still won't call you Karsie-Warsie\r\n \r\n\r\n Ain't it the damnedest thing when you can tell someone the truth, rub their nose in it, document it, substantiate it, repeatedly, endlessly, and they still insist on getting it wrong? Innit it, Andrea? --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #124,906
11/10/03 10:11:06 AM
11/10/03 10:11:49 AM
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Re: Concede the points
an\ufffdec\ufffddot\ufffdal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nk-dtl)
adj.
also an\ufffdec\ufffddot\ufffdic (-dtk) or an\ufffdec\ufffddot\ufffdi\ufffdcal (--kl) Of, characterized by, or full of anecdotes.
Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis: \ufffdThere are anecdotal reports of children poisoned by hot dogs roasted over a fire of the [oleander] stems\ufffd (C. Claiborne Ray).
as in 'I sat across the table.....'
for the xth and last time, I never denied your hysterical ravings about coercion, I merely have inquired as to the form.
repeating the word 'forced' is insufficient
what form did this 'forcing' take?
you also fail to understand the point that the oil company wished to purchase something from MS ( I know this goes against your worldview, where no one wants to buy anything from MS )
that is the only point I made in regard to the 260,000 desktops -- that the company wanted Office and Windows (please don't repeat that MS refused to sell them unless.... - we've got that)
A
Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET
All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM
Reggae, African and Caribbean Music
[link|http://wxxe.org|Tune In]
Edited by andread
Nov. 10, 2003, 10:11:49 AM EST
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Post #124,943
11/10/03 1:05:00 PM
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Eyewitness testimony
...is apparently what you call "anecdotes". \r\n\r\n Kirk was there. You were not. The verifiable components of his story check out. Burden of proof is for you to show that there is a conflict. \r\n\r\n The remainder of your comments have been addressed and dismissed or disproved at least three times. I invoke [link|http://www.4reference.net/encyclopedias/wikipedia/Khendon_s_Law.html|Khendon's Law]. --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #123,497
10/30/03 5:25:36 PM
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Quit playing dumb already!
The costs you're disputiing are the costs of replacing MS with non-MS office solution.
You keep imagining that those are costs of upgrade to new version of MS Office. NOOOO. Those are money to pay if they decide to change, say, to Open Office.
Because the cost is so high, they are willing to invest in new hardware. And get rid of Novell. Even though getting rid of Novell would mean accuiring a few helicopters to ferry windows administartors around. Comparing to the cost of keeping Novell (and abandoning Microsoft) this is peanuts.
And yes, you are right: the only illegal part of this picture is MS refusing to sell upgrade unless Novell is out.
--
The rich, as usual, are employing the elected.
-- [link|http://unfit2print.blogspot.com/|http://unfit2print.blogspot.com/]
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Post #123,544
10/31/03 2:42:32 AM
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Re: Quit playing dumb already!
You guys are missing the point. The needs of business could be met with Windows 3.1 Write, Notepad, perhaps PowerPoint from Office 4.3, and for the true power user, Access 2.0. I've still only experienced a single case of a person using Word to anything like its capability - and that was in 1994.
The office tools that come with, say SuSE 8.2, are more than sufficient for any business need. There would be no cost for retraining - file/open/save/print/forward etc. etc.
-drl
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Post #123,549
10/31/03 5:14:48 AM
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Capabilities
In one of the follow-on documents, apparently Win98 didn't "support" the e-procurement apps BP was considering. How the fsck they failed support isn't particularly clear. But that still only covers the desktop. No need to toss Novell. Though that's clearly what happened. --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #123,555
10/31/03 9:22:22 AM
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Much as I would like to agree with you,
I do have to use Word 97 at least to do my documents. Things like outline mode and diagrams really help. And for sending things up for reviews, change highlighting is very valuable.
Write for Windows 3.1 meets the needs of business users like a spear meets the need of a hunter: it's possible to kill a boar, but boy, it's not pretty.
--
The rich, as usual, are employing the elected.
-- [link|http://unfit2print.blogspot.com/|http://unfit2print.blogspot.com/]
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Post #123,567
10/31/03 10:54:40 AM
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well exCUUUSE ME! OK, OK, Word 97!
I'll cop to that upgrade!
-drl
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