After spending the weekend...

Post #116,331 by bepatient 9/2/03 10:44:51 AM Reply	After spending the weekend... ...with a few members of Engine 7 Ladder 1 and chatting with Gideon Naudet (the folks from the 9/11 documentary)...and having 2 brothers (in law) that are firemen...and living in the NE...all I can say is this... 9/11 is still very fresh in my mind. It is still shocking to drive up the NJTP and not see the towers over Manhattan. It is still painful to think on all of the people I know personally that suffered a loss on that day. There were alot of celebrities around over the weekend (Charity event in SC)...but there was noone that I wanted to shake hands with more than the few guys from E7 that were being honored and noone I wanted to thank more than Gideon and his brother (who couldn't attend due to a new son just being born) for documenting the real heros of that day. I disagree with the morbid assessment. Read these. Understand them. To ignore them dehumanizes the tragedy that was 9/11. It wasn't the buildings that were lost. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #116,348 by Nightowl 9/2/03 1:14:56 PM Reply	Re: After spending the weekend... I disagree with the morbid assessment. Read these. Understand them. To ignore them dehumanizes the tragedy that was 9/11. It wasn't the buildings that were lost. I completely agree. You can't live it through them if you don't, and that is what I do.. I read the history to "live" the history in some way with those that made it. As for the loss, nothing could be more true. We lost so much that day, lives, security, peace of mind, a sense of invulnerability that once existed... the buildings were simply a piece of a much larger puzzle that was ripped apart that day. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum" Comment by Nightowl
Post #116,691 by Ashton 9/4/03 10:31:57 PM Reply	Re: After spending the weekend... You can't live it through them if you don't, and that is what I do.. I read the history to "live" the history in some way with those that made it. This can 'mean' many things; one thing is called vicariously: an implication of "living through others' actual Experience" - that which you never can 'have'. Yours may be a different sense, of course. As for the loss, nothing could be more true. We lost so much that day, lives, security, peace of mind, a sense of invulnerability that once existed... the buildings were simply a piece of a much larger puzzle that was ripped apart that day. Again, all realize (but shallowly, and only via whatever their personal experience had been) ..some emotional sense of the fact that - many died. (and.. is there ever some Good Way of experiencing random intentional death? or simulating it in imagination?) But re security, peace of mind, a sense of invulnerability that once existed... - insofar as all three of these concepts are illusionary in nature: are you failing to see the possible 'positive' aspects? (as most every tragedy also contains - if we look closely) Could anything Lesser -?- have produced a general waking-up to the fact that: 'we' (most often not 'us' per se - but the machinations of our various Governmental Presences all along, in the world) simply.. are Not 'universally Loved'? - as many Americans had supposed (or simply failed ever to notice much about) Just as, re this supposed 'invulnerability' - a) to the opinions of those disgruntled at the cumulative effects of our world activities? b) to the possibility of the US ever! experiencing some tiny fraction of - the conditions under which much (most?) of the rest of the world daily conduct Their lives? c) to any possibility that - US military might (massive as that is) just might prove ineffectual.. in certain kinds of strife? No, this is not about transmogrifying 9/11 into "something Wonderful": that loony idea is the non-substance within all the flag-waving hysterical denouncements of those: who mentioned this aspect.. too soon. For some: it will always be "too soon" to utter. (These are the same folks who imagine that any dis-Unity with a prevailing government activity -- must be 'disloyal'. A really unAmerican piece of non-think, that is.) I only remind that -before 9/11- many, most? Americans were possessed of certain imaginations about - 'Them' \| How 'They' live \| How 'They' See US ..and the unstated presumption: We Are Not Like 'Them' We're Special. So, best not to forget this other angle of view, from now almost 2 years since. And all that has occurred in The "Home Land", and what that word Security... just may come to 'Mean' for us all, after another little review -- in another year or so (?) (Best also to notice: who was made loonier? saner? by the Event. If one can.) Ashton
Post #116,693 by Nightowl 9/4/03 10:53:24 PM Reply	Re: After spending the weekend... You can't live it through them if you don't, and that is what I do.. I read the history to "live" the history in some way with those that made it. This can 'mean' many things; one thing is called vicariously: an implication of "living through others' actual Experience" - that which you never can 'have'. Yours may be a different sense, of course. As for the loss, nothing could be more true. We lost so much that day, lives, security, peace of mind, a sense of invulnerability that once existed... the buildings were simply a piece of a much larger puzzle that was ripped apart that day. Again, all realize (but shallowly, and only via whatever their personal experience had been) ..some emotional sense of the fact that - many died. Hmmmmm Well, I "live it" in the sense that... (thinking how to describe this), Not sure how to explain. When I do historical writing, I attempt to "feel, understand, read, experience" all I can to enhance that. I took a band rifle and raced breathlessly through a heavy snowfall in the woods once, to simulate a civil war experience... granted, I know I can't completely recreate the feelings and emotions and experiences, but I do my best, anyway. I was told by my creative writing teacher that I wrote about the Civil War, and World War II like I'd LIVED it. I even received honorable mention for the short story I wrote (using the snowy race as an example). So, because I like to write..., I try to absorb ALL the information I can, to be able to, well, experience it in any way I can. Does that make any sense? (and.. is there ever some Good Way of experiencing random intentional death? or simulating it in imagination?) But re security, peace of mind, a sense of invulnerability that once existed... - insofar as all three of these concepts are illusionary in nature: are you failing to see the possible 'positive' aspects? (as most every tragedy also contains - if we look closely) Oh no, I see lots of positive things that came from the tragedy. All tragedies tend to have those positive sides. They draw people together, change people, often for the better. Sometimes even new laws or ways of doing things come about. As in the Titanic, when the ship sank and didn't have enough lifeboats, or round the clock telegraph operators and all that changed after that tragedy. Nightowl >8# (Now back to doing my Ethics homework) "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum" Comment by Nightowl
Post #116,798 by Ashton 9/5/03 4:28:45 PM Reply	A worthy aim - Your inspection of 'historical events'. If it's effective? For example - do you ever find yourself thinking quite differently about 'an event' - than the popular slogans about the same event? Ever revise your personal views on Other matters - when you notice a significant discrepancy between Your Take Now and that popular one which you may have shared? This is always hard, of course - as it implies that one's 'reasoning' was less than perfect.. before. But Good though! (this discomfort) - No? Carry on - Ashton
Post #116,836 by Nightowl 9/5/03 11:35:07 PM Reply	Re: A worthy aim - Your inspection of 'historical events'. If it's effective? For example - do you ever find yourself thinking quite differently about 'an event' - than the popular slogans about the same event? Ever revise your personal views on Other matters - when you notice a significant discrepancy between Your Take Now and that popular one which you may have shared? Oh yes, almost always, and it usually isn't a popular view. ;) For example, when I finally allowed myself to read about Hitler, I mean REALLY read about him, i.e. his childhood, etc, I came to feel terribly sorry for him because of the way his mother raised him. Because he wanted to play with the "jew" children, and he couldn't comprehend why he wasn't allowed. And at first he really liked some of them, but then his mother started "drilling into his brain" that jews were bad, they were inferior and would ultimately destroy him if he didn't rise above them. He turned into the "monster" that all viewed him as, but I no longer viewed him as that "monster" anymore, just a seriously gone bad product of bad bad upbringing and teaching. Before that, before reading this, he was the "monster" everyone painted him to be. And I know this will be a LOT less popular, but even in such modern day "assassins" as Timothy McVeigh and Eric Harris & Dylan Klebold, reading into the backgounds of these people open a different picture, one that if you allow yourself to read and study, tells you where and why these people followed the paths they ultimately followed. Are they still monsters? Maybe in one respect, but in another respect, they are victims of society, of the way the Government treated them in one instance, and their peers and family treated them in another. I delve into this, I want to know it all, I want to understand why someone would murder millions of jews, blow up Government buildings and massacre fellow students... what drives them there... maybe by someday understanding that, someday it can be prevented the next time? This is always hard, of course - as it implies that one's 'reasoning' was less than perfect.. before. But Good though! (this discomfort) - No? Absolutely, makes you think and rethink and learn as you go. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum" Comment by Nightowl
Post #116,763 by mmoffitt 9/5/03 12:20:12 PM Reply	Aside. I think the longest lasting of my memories of visiting the USSR as a child is how much we were, in fact, "LOVED" by the same people whom I had been taught hated us more than any other people. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #116,796 by Ashton 9/5/03 4:21:49 PM Reply	Have heard that elsewhere, too I recall vividly the portrayals of 'Russkis', just shy of.. the WW-II caricatures of the "buck-toothed Japs". Want a War? first dehumanize the enemy; then it's OK to Kill Them like bugs. And it's odd for Muricans to ponder that, quite many of the USSR folks of those days.. received a wider more competent education than our vaunted version (with so much history rewritten about Presidents who 'cannot tell a lie'. ;-) A grand illustration of the actual social effects, and across many decades! of 'HomeLand Security', wherever practised. It's simply surreal that This Still Works, as only a near-complete ignorance of history would permit. And in '02,3 here - that daily drumbeat, simple-minded execrable propaganda which We All heard in the lying lies of liars - re Saddam's IMMINENT THREAT to Kansas City, mom, apple-pie yada yada. Yup - still works. (And if Saddam's utter ugliness were Just Cause for an invasion in '03, what then about All those Other antiparagons of injustice -- whom we supported for so long - including er Saddam hisself?) {sigh} Don't Ask. (umm didn't Ari say Just That? about 9/12/01 or so) I figure that, any time the color of the leather seats in one's Urban Assault Vehicle is a much larger personal concern than say, planning an invasion on another State? That particular culture demonstrates clearly, It's Fucked. So what else is new? There's no way to 'parse' any of this - I wonder what that 'means'? Ashton just watchin the dismantling process, izzall (Finished reading Hunter S. Thompson's latest opus, Kingdom of Fear - maybe the last of the 'Fear and Loathing' series -- unless we can do More of the same..) A bit of a ramble, but with some pointed examples of what 'Fucked' might mean, as regards a 'society' -- as usual with HST. OK - back to the daily drill, children: "Duck and Cover, Duck and Cover" (under your desk)
Post #116,797 by mmoffitt 9/5/03 4:24:43 PM Reply	Quite a nice rant, thanks! ;-) bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"

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