Post #11,500
10/3/01 2:17:25 PM
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Why America Has Already Lost the War
From [link|http://www.manhigut.org/english/articles-e/feiglin48-e.html|Why America Has Already Lost the War]
Last Thursday I realized that America had already lost the war.
I came to the US for four days for a meeting that was to have been held in Manhattan on Tuesday evening, September 11. The meeting didn't take place \ufffd no one could get in or out of the great city. I'm not sure if all those invited to the meeting are still alive. There were no flights back home, and all that remained to do was to listen to the reports and hope for a place on the first flight returning to Israel.
I never stay abroad on Shabbat. The trip is more costly and less efficient, but that's the way it is; my own rule. I had now missed out on Shabbat in Eretz Israel, and I could only pray that I would be home in time for Rosh Hashana.
It was impossible to get away from the reports of the massacre in downtown Manhattan. The news was everywhere: on the air, at home, in the car, in the shops. I entered the neighborhood grocery store. The storekeeper's radio was on: Bush was speaking to the American people:
"I declare tomorrow to be a day of prayer", said the President.
Now that's interesting, I think to myself, I can't recall an Israeli Prime Minister who declared a day of prayer. Even when the Yom Kippur War broke out, Golda Meir was shocked, but I don?t remember her asking anyone to pray. But after all, I think, America's national anthem is directed to G-d and Americans sing "G-d bless America". Even the British maintain close contact with the Almighty: "G-d save the Queen". But the Israelis have lost their connection to G-d in their anthem, and all that remains is a dismal hope for a meaningless sort of freedom. To whom precisely should they pray?
"I ask every American", the President continues, breaking into my train of thoughts, "during lunch time tomorrow" (not on the employer's time, like a good Histadrut worker) "to pray for all the injured, their families, and the American nation".
"Go to church, to the synagogue, to the mosque, and pray", ended the President.
"Did I hear right?" I ask the storekeeper. "Did he say mosque?" She nodded.
"At this very moment you've lost the war", I say to the astonished storekeeper, and start looking for what I need on the shelves.
....
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #11,509
10/3/01 2:32:11 PM
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Typical racist claptrap.
[summation]All Muslims are evil, and should be forced to live under permenant occupation until they give up their religion for the One True Religion of Judaism, of which Christianity is only a poor lesser brother. Only the fanatic Israelis that want to blow every arab to Hell and back know the One Righteous Way to solve this problem.[/summation]
At least, that's the feeling I got.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #11,513
10/3/01 2:34:03 PM
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Oh, knock it off.
There's a perfectly legitimate point there, if you have the intestinal fortitude to address it.
Appeasement always backfires. Even the appearance of appeasment is bad policy.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #11,517
10/3/01 2:41:00 PM
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You misunderstand my position.
I'm not for appeasement. I'm all for blowing the Hell out of who needs to have the Hell blown out of them.
I'm just not for doing it based on religious persuasion, unless your religion specifically states "I must kill everybody who isn't a member of my religion," and you actively pursue that goal.
Which, much as I hate to say it, seems to be the state religion of just about every nation on this shithole planet these days. You seem to be a pretty feverent believer in it as well.
I say launch the nukes, and do the universe a favor before we figure out how to unmake it, and somebody does.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #11,522
10/3/01 2:52:29 PM
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How do you define success?
That person's point of view seems to be that we need to blow up some Mosques in Mecca in order to win the war? Just how exactly is such a hardline response supposed to solve the problem of terrorists? Last I saw, Israel was still a target of terrorists, so I don't know that their strategy has a parallel to be drawn for "winning the war".
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Post #11,547
10/3/01 4:13:24 PM
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It's not a war on terrorists.
It's a war with terrorism. Note carefully the difference, and digest the implications. Please.
Islamic terrorism is determined to wipe us out. If that's not obvious by now, you're in denial. It follows that we must wipe out Islamic terrorism in order to survive. That means we destroy not just individual terrorists, but the cultural millieu that spawns them, so that they stop coming.
The side that starts the war gets to decide what kind of war it will be. They decided on a Holy War. I say so be it. We'll fight their Holy War, and let's make damn sure we win.
And no nonsense about tolerance, people. Unilateral tolerance is suicide. Tolerance either goes both ways or it goes out the window. And the first option has already been foreclosed by the enemy.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #11,550
10/3/01 4:19:02 PM
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Fine.
Then I guess that the next time some Christian zealot blows up a Mosque in India, that the rest of the world had better hold a "religious war" against all of Christianity, since Christians spawned Christian Terrorists.
Come on, Marlowe, do you really believe the shit that's flowing out of your ass? Oh wait, that's your mouth - easy to get the two confused.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #11,551
10/3/01 4:26:21 PM
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Did that happen recently?
Then I guess that the next time some Christian zealot blows up a Mosque in India, that the rest of the world had better hold a "religious war" against all of Christianity, since Christians spawned Christian Terrorists.
I know the Muslims, Sikhs, and Hindus have been attacking eachother's temples since the Brits left but have the Christian Indians joined in the fray too?
Ray
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Post #11,552
10/3/01 4:30:16 PM
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Thought that was pretty much everybody against everybody...
Hindus hate Islam and Christianity.
Muslims hate Hindus and Christians.
Christians hate Muslims and Hindus.
It's basically been tit for tat there for some time now.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #11,556
10/3/01 4:38:36 PM
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Gawd, you're so blind.
And what the hell does what goes on off someplace in India have to do with the price of tea in China?
Do we have a right to self defense or do we not? No more evasions. No more knee-jerk blame America excuse-making for the terrorists. And no weaselly qualifiers. Just answer the damn question. Yes or no.
And no, self defense does not consist of holding hands and singing Kumbaya.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #11,562
10/3/01 4:47:45 PM
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Yes.
We have a right to defend ourselves.
That doesn't mean we have a right to commit genocide. There is a HELL of a lot of difference between killing all the terrorists (and ya gotta get them all - including OURS, and that's where you're falling on your face) and killing all members of a religion.
What happens in India is quite relevant. You are taking the actions of a small group of people (the leaders of SOME, not all, Islamic countries, as well as their supported Terrorist cronies fortunately) to condemn a whole society.
Imagine if somebody did the same for, say, the Roman Catholics. Hell, the IRA blows Prodestants up, it must be a Jihad, let's kill all the Roman Catholics.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #11,666
10/3/01 11:23:02 PM
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Small group of people?
Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that the ones who would dance on our graves are but a tiny minority of Muslims. A minority, perhaps. But why is there so little condemnation of such atrocities from the rest? Even the few religious leaders who have condemned the attack have talked out of both sides of their mouths. People with an attitude like that fall into two categories: terrorists and potential terrorists. And when the potential terrorists choose to realize their potential, we'd best be prepared to kill them at the very earliest signs, because that's the last chance we'll get. They're not to come up to us and say "though you should know, I just decided this morning to turn terrorist. So look out!" We must be prepared do this, no matter what fraction of the total population they turn out to be.
But if by some chance you turn out to correct in your estimation, and they really are a tiny minority, that's fine with me. Just be sure. No wishful thinking. Wishful thinking can be fatal.
I'm perfectly willing to let a version of Islam survive. But not a version that would fail to condemn terrorism in the strongest terms. And not a version that condones blaming other nations for one's own failings. That's just further up the same slippery slope. And if they can bring themselves to admit that the Jews had Palestine first, that would help a lot. Unless they want to give it back to the Canaanites.
Oh, and their centuries old tradition of absolute rulers has got to go. That's a major source of their misery. And since they insist on blaming us for their misery, it's in our interest to lift them up out of that cesspit. Even if they don't want to come out. Especially if they don't want to come out. Force democracy and human rights on them. I'll meet them halfway: I won't absolutely insist they let women vote. But they've got to let *some* people vote.
Note: there is nothing quite like suicide terrorism in any other religion or cultural tradition, except for the Kamikaze pilots of Japan, and that's a much more recent development. The Crusaders were much more conventional than this. Likewise the Assyrians, Genghis Khan, the Vikings, the Goths, the Jacobins, the Apache and any other great non-Muslim terrorist organizations of history. The IRA don't actually sit in the dynamite-laden vehicles they detonate. The anarchists have the sense to run away after they throw their bombs. Suicide terrorism is an Islamic innovation.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #11,783
10/4/01 2:01:22 PM
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Too far
marlowe: That means we destroy not just individual terrorists, but the cultural millieu that spawns them, so that they stop coming.
inthane-chan:Then I guess that the next time some Christian zealot blows up a Mosque in India, that the rest of the world had better hold a "religious war" against all of Christianity, since Christians spawned Christian Terrorists.
No. You go too far. Not all christianity. Only the Chrisitian fundamentalists. And I say go get 'em. They're already raising militias and planning to overthrow the US Gov.
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Post #11,790
10/4/01 2:21:49 PM
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Go back and read what I said again...
I was turning it around on him. Believe me, I have no desire to label everybody from a singular religion as Evil, unless they really are Evil with a capital E.
There was this little Cult of Hitler during the late 1930s/early 1940s that was definitely that...
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #11,740
10/4/01 10:54:30 AM
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They want it to be a holy war
because that would give them more strength. They need the support of all Islamic countries to be able to seriously stand up against the opposition. If we want to keep the killing to a minimum (and this will be important to the worldwide community) we have to show that we are NOT fighting it as a holy war. Those other Islamic nations will need to be able to see that we will NOT be coming after them after we finish off the terrorists just becuse they're Muslims. This War should be only about taking out the forces necissary to end this kind of terrorism.
America is ABOUT religious freedom. That was the reason for our colonization in the first place. We can not turn around now and say "you don't deserve to live because you believe in Allah instead of God". There are plenty of Muslims in America as well. Are we supposed to pick all them up now and move them to concentration camps? I have a very good friend fighting beside me (figuatively, since we are currently not in battle) in the US Air Force that is a Muslim. I would trust this man with my life, and in the military, that is very important. I would not support a holy war against any religion simply because extremists in that religion want to use such a holy war to unite the whole religion against us. You're just playing into their (the extremists) hands.
~~~)-Steven----
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Post #11,743
10/4/01 11:21:20 AM
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Those other Islamic nations?
Which ones are those? And are you sure? Even Saudi Arabia is far from an unequivocal ally. The Kuwaitis may be full of gratitude and goodwill toward us, but they don't count for much. They can't even defend themselves against their own neighbors. Qatar may be on our side. Pakistan is very ambiguous. Some of these countries may be useful as tools, but we musn't trust them. Keep the chain guard on.
Put not your faith in imaginary friends.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #11,750
10/4/01 11:46:54 AM
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whether or not we can count them as allies
I'd rather not have to count them as enemies. If we allow this to become a holy war, we'll be fighting a whole lot more than if they remain neutral or ambiguous.
~~~)-Steven----
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Post #11,791
10/4/01 2:25:07 PM
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Fine. But let's watch our backs. (nomsg)
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #11,816
10/4/01 4:52:49 PM
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That goes without saying
~~~)-Steven----
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Post #11,588
10/3/01 6:33:31 PM
10/3/01 6:36:38 PM
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A swing and a miss...
No, the point of the writer was his incredulity that one should ask a Muslim to pray for the souls of Americans that were killed by the attack. After all, this implication goes, Muslims killed these Americans, so why would any of them be in the slightest bit interested in praying for these satanic infidels?
Appeasment my ass. This article had nothing to do with appeasment (which, BTW, I agree always backfires). This had to do with the writer's righteous indignation at the Resident suggesting that rank-and-file Muslims might actually be as shocked, upset, saddened, and angry as he (the writer), and the rest of the non-Muslim world, was.
Inthane was (as pwhysall might say) spot-on.
jb4
(Resistance is not futile...)
Edited by jb4
Oct. 3, 2001, 06:36:38 PM EDT
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Post #11,520
10/3/01 2:45:51 PM
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as I see it...
the significance is that in both synagogues and churches people worship the same God. (Ignoring for the moment that Jews don't accept Christ. or the Holy Spirit?) But in mosques people worship a different God. So Bush is advocating idolatry, betraying the Christian foundation of the USA.
Have fun,
Carl Forde
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Post #11,526
10/3/01 2:58:48 PM
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Re: as I see it...
AFAIK, Jews, Christian, and Muslims worship the same God. Muslims recognize the Old Testament prophets and Jesus as a prophet (not the Messiah).
Ray
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Post #11,781
10/4/01 1:56:53 PM
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I don't see that
from [link|http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/tawheed/conceptofgod.html|Who is Allah?] Islam rejects characterizing God in any human form or depicting Him as favoring certain individuals or nations on the basis of wealth, power or race. He created the human beings as equals. They may distinguish themselves and get His favor through virtue and piety only.
The concept that God rested in the seventh day of creation, that God wrestled with one of His soldiers, that God is an envious plotter against mankind, or that God is incarnate in any human being are considered blasphemy from the Islamic point of view. This directly conflicts with the Jewish and Christian God who created man in his own image. It directly conflicts with the Christian view of Jesus who is God as man (wholy God and wholy human). Have fun,
Carl Forde
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Post #11,787
10/4/01 2:09:57 PM
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Re: I don't see that
Maybe I wasn't clear enough but what I meant was that Muslims believe that we Jews and Christians are worshipping God (their god) but we completely mis-understand who He is and what we are in relationship to Him. But it is certain that all three religions agree that there is only one true God and we are all praying to Him.
Compare this to other god based religions like Hinduism. I'm sure Muslims, as well as Jews and Christians, would say that the Hindu gods do not exist. Period.
Ray
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Post #11,571
10/3/01 5:15:47 PM
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Nope, all worship the same God
...and I appreciate the attention.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
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Post #11,572
10/3/01 5:16:44 PM
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Doesn't help, then...
...that I lack belief in you.
Peter
Shill For Hire
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
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Post #11,745
10/4/01 11:22:09 AM
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It's so you don't know whether to laugh or to cry...
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Post #11,518
10/3/01 2:41:24 PM
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Follow up - (link is timing out...growlf)
View the source - copy it out...chop out the links at the top & bottom and view that...easier to read.
"At this very moment you've lost the war", I say to the astonished storekeeper, and start looking for what I need on the shelves.
America has lost the war. The Americans have made the same mistake as the Israelis, and just as Israel is retreating from one defeat to the next, so the Americans are now lined up on the track to disintegration.
When the black boxes of the hijacked airplanes are recovered, we will hear the pilots screaming "Allah Achbar" in the last moments before the crash. They slaughtered you in the name of Allah, and now the President calls on you to pray to him.
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Post #11,525
10/3/01 2:57:43 PM
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Okay, I've read it....
and it does scare me.
No, not the idea that worse attack will come.
No, not the idea that we might evenutally lose.
No, not the idea that it is a religious war.
But, one of my thoughts on this attack, was the why? Why nail the twin trade centers? Why do an action that would, frankly, cause a war that might very well take out a number, if not all, muslim nations.
One answer was that it was a set up. bin Laudin didn't attack the U.S. He wasn't involved. But someone wanted us to think so. Someone wanted us to kill him and everyone around him.
And it would have to be someone capable enough to hijack 4 aircraft. And dedicated enough to kill themselves in the process.
One thought occurred, but it was fantasy. No one was cold-blooded enough for that.
Or so I thought. Now I wonder.
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Post #11,746
10/4/01 11:22:39 AM
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Me, Occured Same Suspicion About Day 2...
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Post #11,529
10/3/01 3:03:20 PM
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I have not personally lost a family member yet
G_d forbid they dont get hurt because the Haj in Mecca and a Jumbo Jet full of fuel me screaming on the radio yippee ki yeah motherfuckers!!! corkscrewing into the crowd at 450 knots+. The terrs are deliberately targeting our institutions and wrongly link the pentagon and the trade center to our religion of material wealth. I dont dislike their faith, I am just pointing out that this could be a 2 way street very quickly. So I hope that the regular Muslims hear this and understand that there isnt much in the way of stopping massive civilian retaliation attacks.
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
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Post #11,543
10/3/01 3:56:39 PM
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Worst possible course of action
I fully understand where that sentement comes from, but it's the worst possible course of action.
Think about it for a moment, your going to go over to a culture built on macho and multi-generation revenge wars, and give all of them a reason to kill us at any cost? If somebody would actually do that I think things would quickly degerate to the point that genocide is the only solution. It would litterally be us or them, a multi-generation ground war that wouldn't end till every Muslim in the world was dead or the US and Europe where converted to the Muslim faith.
Jay
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Post #11,546
10/3/01 4:05:55 PM
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that was my point, MAD2 they need to understand that their
icons, beliefs are just as vunerable as ours when it comes to this shit so they should protect themselves by cutting the head off of this particular snake. If we feel that they are protecting these clowns a chance that the Aryan Brotherhood or someone like them may turn their gimlet eye on Mecca et al.
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
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Post #11,646
10/3/01 9:50:37 PM
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Won't work
It's a nice idea, but it won't work. The reason MAD worked in the first place is that it only depends on a handful of top political leaders acting in a self interested manner. That is one of the bedrocks of human nature, we can depend on that.
With the terrorists there are too many people the power to pull the trigger, and worse yet, they are usually religiously motivated not motivated by normal self interest. The religious fanatics are liable to want to trigger larger and larger reprisals, exactly to start war.
That's ignoring the problem of targeting, To attack Mecca would be to punish all Muslims for the acts of a few.
Jay
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Post #11,671
10/3/01 11:29:57 PM
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whats yer point?
If I losed a family member I reserve all rights to act unilaterally to kill whoever I wish to extract my personal vision of justice. Are you suggesting that I be arrested and jailed for contemplative acts not carried out inside the borders of the United States? If I commit no crimes against the law here, and go to another country, perpetrate whatever acts I wish, how can you stop me when those folks can come here and act out at will? We have the largest mall in Florida opening Saturday 1/4 mile from my house. My girl is working there, my kids want to go there will be an estimated 10k capacity and if something happens? What is left of my family goes home, I go to doing what I used to do and a mountain load of evens goes out. Muslims are not the only ones that have the will to kill. Since that will not be directed by a government agency how can those governments like the taliban object?
thanx,
the above is conjecture etc. etc. etc. :)
bill
What is a user? You mean userid isnt the same as uid?, gid? whats that? I dont understand "ask the requestor to send a non formal email request for ftp access? whaddya mean dean?
Halp Iam drowning in Bovine Fecal Matter!!!!
Bill
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Post #11,553
10/3/01 4:31:05 PM
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We must not sink to their level.
We do not target noncombatants. That's an important part of what makes us better than them. And the fact that we are better than them is the reason we deserve to win.
It may well be that there are precious few real noncombatants. Evidence suggests that the people are fanatical, like the Japanese were. But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. At the very least we should repeatedly solicit, and be prepared to accept, the unconditional surrender of the general populace. Only the actual killers and their superiors need be exterminated. And this surrender must be unconditional, because of what must be done to their culture immediately afterward. When there was something to discuss, they chose mass murder. Now there is nothing to discuss.
Oh, and, destroy those poppy fields. Plow them under and plant food crops. These asshole peasants can't feed themselves but they can grow this crap?
We should emulate the enemy in their strengths: their determination, their willingness to sacrifice, their unity, their organization and their sense of purpose. But do not emulate that which makes them evil.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #11,563
10/3/01 4:49:38 PM
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How do you reconcile that with...
...your buddy who thinks that the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim?
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #11,591
10/3/01 6:42:46 PM
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In practise it may amount to the same thing. Or not.
I am prepared for both eventualities. Are you?
And are you even trying to be fair to either position?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #11,619
10/3/01 8:01:25 PM
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If it does come to that...
I would take that step.
I would feel like shit, and probably totally lose my faith in the ability of the human race to fix its problems (hell, I'm halfway there already...) but you don't see me calling for Theocide from the starting line.
Your "friend" has forgotten something. This is not a religious war - this is a power struggle, that has taken on religious trappings. If we go after the whole religion, turn against all Muslims, then Bin Laden achieves his goals, in uniting the entire Muslim world against the "West," such as it is.
Translation: We just made a shitload more enemies.
And if you've been reading what I wrote, it's not about taking out all the Muslims, it's about taking out WHATEVER group happens to take actions against civilians, and not choosing the lesser of two evils, even if it costs us in the short run. This "He's more of a monster than you are, so I'll back you" bullshit is what gets us into this - and unless we do some MAJOR fucking housecleaning, our own house is going to fall in on our heads. Maybe not this time, but the next Bin Laden wannabe, whether he be Moonie, Sikh, or Christian, he'll figure out some way to make 9/11/2001 look like a firecracker.
All you're doing is making it so that monsters like him can rise up again. The lenerean hydra kept coming back because every time you cut off a head, two grew back. But if you burn that thing, EVEN IF IT BURNS YOU, it won't be coming back. Considering that this hydra has roots in us, we need to burn ourselves as well as Bin Laden.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #11,747
10/4/01 11:23:19 AM
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"Wrongly"? I think they got that "link" all right, at least.
Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
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Post #11,541
10/3/01 3:41:44 PM
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Typical
Typical religious fanatic.
His entire world view is organized around religion, to him all other concerns are secondary or meaningless. Notice how he complains that Israel's government doesn't openly call for prayer the way the US does, how he equates western culture and religion, how he doesn't actually have the least sympathy for the US. In his view every American Muslim is a terrorist in waiting, every American Jew is really an Israeli that hasn't gone home yet and how every/any action of Jews is justified.
His solution is even worse. Attacking Mecca is stunningly irrational, a course of action that would trigger a genocidal religious war. But then again, he would probably be happy about it.
Jay
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