See my response to Beep

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Post #114,924 by Silverlock 8/22/03 12:35:21 PM Reply	See my response to Beep [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=114923\|here]. Pretty much covers this. ----------------------------------------- [link\|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html\|?W] Where were you in 72? [link\|http://www.blah3.com/graymatter/archives/00000420.html\|Fair and Balanced] sig
Post #114,926 by admin 8/22/03 12:47:25 PM Reply	Which part of it? Because it's not the same point. 1) "My worship"? Examine your assumptions here. I'm as atheistic as they come. And that post doesn't answer my points. 2) "The only way the gov can truly be neutral with respect to religion is to scrupulously avoid supporting any of the various flavors." Wrong. "not supporting" is not the same as explicitly supporting (or discriminating). By preventing church groups from gathering at a school, you are engaging in explicit discrimination, not explicit support. Only if a single group is allowed permission is there any kind of explicit or implicit support. By explicitly prohibiting religion, in direct contradiction to the Constitution, you are just as guilty of engaging in discriminatory, non-neutral behavior. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #114,927 by Silverlock 8/22/03 12:58:11 PM Reply	I don't agree You think the current interpretation is a perversion. I think it's a logical outgrowth. You don't agree with current case law in this matter, I do. ----------------------------------------- [link\|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html\|?W] Where were you in 72? [link\|http://www.blah3.com/graymatter/archives/00000420.html\|Fair and Balanced] sig
Post #114,930 by bepatient 8/22/03 1:04:15 PM Reply	And its discriminatory. Just as much so as separate toilets. ...without regard to race, color, religion, creed, gender, national origin, age, disability, marital or veteran status, sexual orientation... If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #114,935 by admin 8/22/03 1:28:16 PM Reply	Don't see how you can call that logical. For the reasons I stated. Whether that is the current interpretation or not, I don't care. Argument from authority. Make your own argument, not someone else's. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #115,158 by Silverlock 8/24/03 9:18:29 AM Reply	Argument from authority A complaint about being illogical in an argument about religion. Good one, Scott. And the complaint is about using the argument from authority. About religion. Better one. ----------------------------------------- [link\|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html\|?W] Where were you in 72? [link\|http://www.blah3.com/graymatter/archives/00000420.html\|Fair and Balanced] sig
Post #115,160 by admin 8/24/03 9:37:07 AM 8/24/03 9:37:20 AM Reply	Wrong. Lame attempt at misdirection. This is an argument about politics. We're not arguing faith. We're arguing law. Try again. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..." Edited by admin Aug. 24, 2003, 09:37:20 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #115,279 by Silverlock 8/25/03 10:26:49 AM Reply	The law is in regards to faith. The point is proposed that there is "no difference" in laws regarding hobbyists use of public facilities and laws regarding religious groups use of those facilities. I am saying you can't divorce the religious aspect from the discussion. There is a difference. ----------------------------------------- [link\|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html\|?W] Where were you in 72? [link\|http://www.blah3.com/graymatter/archives/00000420.html\|Fair and Balanced] sig
Post #115,284 by admin 8/25/03 10:48:16 AM Reply	Doesn't matter what the law is about. We're discussing law primarily about religion secondarily. Your previous objection is therefore ridiculous. Religion is a (strange) hobby, as far as I am concerned. There is no difference. And as pointed out elsewhere, apparently current case law supports my view on this manner, since you seem to be impressed with authority. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #115,297 by Silverlock 8/25/03 11:58:23 AM Reply	Ok We are done. The impasse is obvious. The "no difference" position is what it all boils down to and I don't see any way of convincing you of the error of your conviction. ----------------------------------------- [link\|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html\|?W] Where were you in 72? [link\|http://www.blah3.com/graymatter/archives/00000420.html\|Fair and Balanced] sig
Post #115,298 by bepatient 8/25/03 12:07:51 PM Reply	Heh heh... ...because his isn't in error. Nudge ;-) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #115,300 by Silverlock 8/25/03 12:11:57 PM Reply	Braap I make rude mouth noises in your general direction. Nudge ;-) backatcha ----------------------------------------- [link\|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html\|?W] Where were you in 72? [link\|http://www.blah3.com/graymatter/archives/00000420.html\|Fair and Balanced] sig
Post #115,299 by admin 8/25/03 12:11:49 PM Reply	... You're treating religious groups differently. This is, by all definitions applicable, discrimination. The Constitution specifically disallows this kind of discrimination. I'm at a loss as to how you can't see that. Impasse indeed. You've managed to present nothing that explains why your position isn't illogical, yet you're convinced that my "conviction" is in error. None so blind... Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #115,303 by a6l6e6x 8/25/03 12:47:07 PM Reply	I agree with your point, Don. Not all "clubs" and "hobbies" are equivalent. Plug in "man boy love" or "child porn photo exchange" or "animal sacrifice" or "masochist sadist interaction" group. Yeah, they deserve to meet in public facilities as well. Maybe NOT! One needs to have a blind spot not to see the evil baggage that comes with religions. Alex "Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something." -- last words of Pancho Villa (1877-1923)
Post #115,309 by admin 8/25/03 1:16:21 PM Reply	Er... legal groups. Which is a perfectly valid distinction to make. I'm certainly not blind to the danger of religion. However, making the distinction on religion is in direct contradiction to the Constitution. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #115,313 by a6l6e6x 8/25/03 2:34:16 PM Reply	But ritual animal sacrifice is perfectly legal. [link\|http://www.religioustolerance.org/santeri1.htm\|SUPREME COURT RULING ON SANTERIA ANIMAL SACRIFICES]. And so are consensual [link\|http://www.geocities.com/rhsmcjrotc/parrisisland.html\|power mind games]. Alex "Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something." -- last words of Pancho Villa (1877-1923)
Post #115,314 by bepatient 8/25/03 2:38:18 PM Reply	Cool... ...school barbecue! If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #115,315 by admin 8/25/03 2:47:07 PM Reply	Goes in same category as the rest of the legal groups then. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #115,310 by bepatient 8/25/03 1:25:47 PM Reply	And I know those... One needs to have a blind spot not to see the evil baggage that comes with religions. ...that hold the same opinion about certain minority groups. Understand his point or not...its not illegal to be religious (unlike the other examples)...and as such that makes the view bigoted and prejudicial. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #115,318 by Ashton 8/25/03 4:00:14 PM Reply	OK for just now: perhaps made illegal____just after WW-III?
Post #115,132 by mhuber 8/24/03 2:44:21 AM Reply	Um, no . Current case law says the opposite If a school allows the use of facilities by outside groups, it has to allow them whether religious or not. ---- Sometime you the windshield, sometime you the bug, sometime you the driver you turn on the windshield washer you keep going.
Post #115,161 by admin 8/24/03 9:37:58 AM Reply	Good, that's how it should be. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

The Pledge of Allegiance is no longer required in schools - (orion) - (138) - Aug. 20, 2003, 09:46:32 AM EDT

Pledge of Allegiance no longer required? - (rcareaga) - (3) - Aug. 20, 2003, 09:58:54 AM EDT

Evidence - (orion) - (2) - Aug. 20, 2003, 02:58:50 PM EDT

Re: Evidence - (rcareaga) - (1) - Aug. 20, 2003, 04:47:57 PM EDT

Is this the news forum? - (orion) - Aug. 20, 2003, 05:14:01 PM EDT

Separation of Church and State. - (pwhysall) - (128) - Aug. 20, 2003, 10:08:57 AM EDT

It is not "separation"... - (bepatient) - (127) - Aug. 20, 2003, 01:11:42 PM EDT

I'll beg to differ. - (inthane-chan) - (24) - Aug. 20, 2003, 03:30:58 PM EDT

Beg all you like. - (bepatient) - (23) - Aug. 20, 2003, 03:58:10 PM EDT

That's not the point. - (inthane-chan) - (19) - Aug. 20, 2003, 04:07:47 PM EDT

No I got it. - (bepatient) - Aug. 20, 2003, 04:14:53 PM EDT

However, banning is exactly what is happening - (bluke) - (17) - Aug. 21, 2003, 04:25:40 AM EDT

Re: However, banning is exactly what is happening - (JayMehaffey) - (16) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:44:00 PM EDT

well stated -NT - (deSitter) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:45:14 PM EDT

Disagree completely. - (Steve Lowe) - (12) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:58:42 PM EDT

Correct... - (bepatient) - (6) - Aug. 21, 2003, 01:11:50 PM EDT

Threat to long-term survival. - (Ashton) - (5) - Aug. 21, 2003, 03:51:03 PM EDT

So who decides on what proper 'indoctrination' is? - (Steve Lowe) - (1) - Aug. 21, 2003, 04:28:19 PM EDT

Re: So who decides on what proper 'indoctrination' is? - (Ashton) - Aug. 22, 2003, 01:29:29 AM EDT

Dear me... - (bepatient) - (2) - Aug. 22, 2003, 08:02:30 AM EDT

An anticipated Bowdlerization. Let me Econ- it for ya: - (Ashton) - (1) - Aug. 22, 2003, 06:41:38 PM EDT

Not necessary... - (bepatient) - Aug. 22, 2003, 07:45:03 PM EDT

Doesn't have to be a specific religion - (JayMehaffey) - (4) - Aug. 21, 2003, 02:14:50 PM EDT

the constitution states ... - (bluke) - (3) - Aug. 21, 2003, 04:55:27 PM EDT

Well, up here - (jake123) - Aug. 21, 2003, 06:12:07 PM EDT

Thats the common translation now bluke... - (bepatient) - (1) - Aug. 22, 2003, 08:10:37 AM EDT

I agree with that wording - (Ashton) - Aug. 22, 2003, 07:36:27 PM EDT

Not true - (bluke) - (1) - Aug. 21, 2003, 04:52:14 PM EDT

I'm pretty much with you on that - (jake123) - Aug. 21, 2003, 06:14:48 PM EDT

Folie \ufffd deux.. folie \ufffd millon - Again!? - (Ashton) - (2) - Aug. 20, 2003, 06:35:37 PM EDT

Re: Folie \ufffd deux.. folie \ufffd millon - Again!? - (bepatient) - (1) - Aug. 21, 2003, 08:20:23 AM EDT

In context of peer (and teacher) pressure and required - (Ashton) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:51:45 AM EDT

Operative word - (Silverlock) - (98) - Aug. 20, 2003, 03:45:58 PM EDT

Agreed - (bepatient) - (97) - Aug. 20, 2003, 04:07:37 PM EDT

Nit picking - (Silverlock) - (95) - Aug. 20, 2003, 04:15:50 PM EDT

No I didn't miss it. - (bepatient) - (94) - Aug. 20, 2003, 04:28:27 PM EDT

(Op iff p) - (FuManChu) - Aug. 20, 2003, 05:25:30 PM EDT

I don't think I could disagree more - (Silverlock) - (92) - Aug. 21, 2003, 10:40:25 AM EDT

Well we will disagree entirely here. - (bepatient) - (35) - Aug. 21, 2003, 10:51:43 AM EDT

No it isn't. - (pwhysall) - (34) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:17:23 AM EDT

No that not what he said. - (bepatient) - (33) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:28:33 AM EDT

Re: No that not what he said. - (pwhysall) - (25) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:31:13 AM EDT

Its not... - (bepatient) - (24) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:49:23 AM EDT

Re: Its not... - (pwhysall) - (22) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:59:25 AM EDT

Now we see... - (bepatient) - (9) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:29:45 PM EDT

Say it ain't so. - (pwhysall) - (8) - Aug. 21, 2003, 04:53:30 PM EDT

Nazis killed people - (bluke) - (3) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:03:39 PM EDT

Got link? - (Silverlock) - (2) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:54:54 PM EDT

OT: while looking for link, found this: - (Arkadiy) - (1) - Aug. 22, 2003, 10:13:39 AM EDT

I don't quite grok his comment, - (Ashton) - Aug. 22, 2003, 07:04:37 PM EDT

I want the tax dollars... - (bepatient) - (3) - Aug. 22, 2003, 08:15:30 AM EDT

I find it ironic... - (admin) - (2) - Aug. 22, 2003, 09:36:28 AM EDT

Aye Cap'n...there's the rub. -NT - (bepatient) - Aug. 22, 2003, 09:44:10 AM EDT

That is ever the danger of the uninformed literal mind. -NT - (Ashton) - Aug. 22, 2003, 07:29:47 PM EDT

You are being misdirected - (mhuber) - (11) - Aug. 24, 2003, 02:36:17 AM EDT

At Last:___The CRUX of the matter! -NT - (Ashton) - Aug. 25, 2003, 04:34:00 PM EDT

You didn't know my chess coach. ;) -NT - (inthane-chan) - Aug. 25, 2003, 07:08:47 PM EDT

Exactly - (Silverlock) - (8) - Aug. 25, 2003, 11:07:35 PM EDT

Oh no, you don't. - (admin) - (4) - Aug. 25, 2003, 11:11:26 PM EDT

Try this word - (Silverlock) - (3) - Aug. 25, 2003, 11:13:35 PM EDT

Try this one: - (admin) - (2) - Aug. 25, 2003, 11:16:14 PM EDT

Response noted - (Silverlock) - (1) - Aug. 25, 2003, 11:27:30 PM EDT

Substantively different in kind - (admin) - Aug. 25, 2003, 11:33:01 PM EDT

Oy shift this crap into politics - (boxley) - (2) - Aug. 26, 2003, 09:26:49 PM EDT

That would be unconstitutional ;-) -NT - (bepatient) - (1) - Aug. 27, 2003, 06:56:57 AM EDT

Spoken like a Strict deConstructionist. . . -NT - (Ashton) - Aug. 27, 2003, 03:49:24 PM EDT

It is not the function of government at all. - (Ashton) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:13:12 PM EDT

Get it straight - (Silverlock) - (5) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:58:15 AM EDT

You've entirely missed the point of church-state separation - (deSitter) - (4) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:11:02 PM EDT

Re: You've entirely missed the point of church-state separat - (Ashton) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:27:52 PM EDT

Quibble about liberalism - (jake123) - (2) - Aug. 21, 2003, 06:28:33 PM EDT

yes - (deSitter) - (1) - Aug. 21, 2003, 07:13:48 PM EDT

A great Stine cartoon has graced my reefer for ages - (Ashton) - Aug. 22, 2003, 01:47:11 AM EDT

Good News Club v Milford Central Schools (1998) - (Another Scott) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:59:39 AM EDT

Can "Anti-Creationism Alliance" meet in the school gym? -NT - (Arkadiy) - (40) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:28:29 AM EDT

Why not. -NT - (bepatient) - (1) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:28:56 AM EDT

I know your answer - (Arkadiy) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:16:18 PM EDT

It already does - (Silverlock) - (6) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:20:15 PM EDT

So, it's OK to advance the cause of Atheism on Govt property - (Arkadiy) - (5) - Aug. 21, 2003, 01:35:14 PM EDT

Not my point at all - (Silverlock) - (3) - Aug. 21, 2003, 01:49:56 PM EDT

Sorry. - (Arkadiy) - (2) - Aug. 21, 2003, 02:03:29 PM EDT

Which question? - (Silverlock) - (1) - Aug. 21, 2003, 03:02:19 PM EDT

Both, please? - (Arkadiy) - Aug. 22, 2003, 10:05:34 AM EDT

Umm we've had the 'A-theism' discussion several times - (Ashton) - Aug. 22, 2003, 01:55:21 AM EDT

Here's where I stand. - (inthane-chan) - (30) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:42:44 PM EDT

Only the very best representatives - (Arkadiy) - Aug. 21, 2003, 01:37:48 PM EDT

Britney Spears. - (pwhysall) - Aug. 21, 2003, 04:58:10 PM EDT

Science is religion - (jake123) - Aug. 21, 2003, 06:35:39 PM EDT

Where I disagree with you - (Silverlock) - (26) - Aug. 21, 2003, 09:52:23 PM EDT

Discrimination - (bluke) - (24) - Aug. 22, 2003, 03:35:10 AM EDT

you answer your own question - (Silverlock) - (23) - Aug. 22, 2003, 11:54:00 AM EDT

Perversion of the Constitution. - (admin) - (22) - Aug. 22, 2003, 12:12:36 PM EDT

See my response to Beep - (Silverlock) - (21) - Aug. 22, 2003, 12:35:21 PM EDT

Which part of it? - (admin) - (20) - Aug. 22, 2003, 12:47:25 PM EDT

I don't agree - (Silverlock) - (19) - Aug. 22, 2003, 12:58:11 PM EDT

And its discriminatory. - (bepatient) - Aug. 22, 2003, 01:04:15 PM EDT

Don't see how you can call that logical. - (admin) - (15) - Aug. 22, 2003, 01:28:16 PM EDT

Argument from authority - (Silverlock) - (14) - Aug. 24, 2003, 09:18:29 AM EDT

Wrong. Lame attempt at misdirection. - (admin) - (13) - Aug. 24, 2003, 09:37:20 AM EDT

The law is in regards to faith. - (Silverlock) - (12) - Aug. 25, 2003, 10:26:49 AM EDT

Doesn't matter what the law is about. - (admin) - (11) - Aug. 25, 2003, 10:48:16 AM EDT

Ok - (Silverlock) - (10) - Aug. 25, 2003, 11:58:23 AM EDT

Heh heh... - (bepatient) - (1) - Aug. 25, 2003, 12:07:51 PM EDT

Braap - (Silverlock) - Aug. 25, 2003, 12:11:57 PM EDT

... - (admin) - Aug. 25, 2003, 12:11:49 PM EDT

I agree with your point, Don. - (a6l6e6x) - (6) - Aug. 25, 2003, 12:47:07 PM EDT

Er... *legal* groups. - (admin) - (3) - Aug. 25, 2003, 01:16:21 PM EDT

But ritual animal sacrifice is perfectly legal. - (a6l6e6x) - (2) - Aug. 25, 2003, 02:34:16 PM EDT

Cool... - (bepatient) - Aug. 25, 2003, 02:38:18 PM EDT

Goes in same category as the rest of the legal groups then. -NT - (admin) - Aug. 25, 2003, 02:47:07 PM EDT

And I know those... - (bepatient) - (1) - Aug. 25, 2003, 01:25:47 PM EDT

OK for just now: perhaps made illegal____just after WW-III? -NT - (Ashton) - Aug. 25, 2003, 04:00:14 PM EDT

Um, no . Current case law says the opposite - (mhuber) - (1) - Aug. 24, 2003, 02:44:21 AM EDT

Good, that's how it should be. -NT - (admin) - Aug. 24, 2003, 09:37:58 AM EDT

It seems to have come to 'about that', no? - (Ashton) - Aug. 22, 2003, 03:44:23 AM EDT

Some serious disagreement - (jake123) - (14) - Aug. 21, 2003, 06:25:54 PM EDT

No - (Silverlock) - (13) - Aug. 21, 2003, 10:09:41 PM EDT

That is very nice - (bluke) - (12) - Aug. 22, 2003, 12:26:33 AM EDT

Its outright prejudicial.. - (bepatient) - (11) - Aug. 22, 2003, 08:18:10 AM EDT

You actually believe that? - (Silverlock) - (10) - Aug. 22, 2003, 12:29:33 PM EDT

Admin stated the views adequately above. -NT - (bepatient) - Aug. 22, 2003, 12:58:19 PM EDT

Amtrack is federally subsidized - (Arkadiy) - (3) - Aug. 22, 2003, 12:59:28 PM EDT

He wants his money back ;-) -NT - (bepatient) - Aug. 22, 2003, 01:04:57 PM EDT

Silly, but it does raise an interesting point.. - (hnick) - (1) - Aug. 22, 2003, 01:21:59 PM EDT

Exactly. The motivation should be moot. - (admin) - Aug. 22, 2003, 01:30:36 PM EDT

Riding in the back of the bus - (jake123) - (4) - Aug. 22, 2003, 02:35:20 PM EDT

Where do you draw the line? - (Silverlock) - (3) - Aug. 22, 2003, 04:28:32 PM EDT

Re: Where do you draw the line? - (admin) - (2) - Aug. 22, 2003, 05:10:33 PM EDT

Was that a surrender or a .. Gah !?__:-\ufffd -NT - (Ashton) - (1) - Aug. 22, 2003, 07:48:04 PM EDT

It was an attempt at illogic - (admin) - Aug. 22, 2003, 09:55:43 PM EDT

Declared unconstitutional? - (mhuber) - Aug. 24, 2003, 02:23:07 AM EDT

No free exercise is being touched here - (JayMehaffey) - (2) - Aug. 20, 2003, 08:21:54 PM EDT

Thats not at issue... - (bepatient) - (1) - Aug. 21, 2003, 08:22:01 AM EDT

Good. - (pwhysall) - Aug. 21, 2003, 08:30:24 AM EDT

2 different issues - (JayMehaffey) - (3) - Aug. 20, 2003, 02:39:45 PM EDT

Must disagree with the "remedy". Again. - (Ashton) - (2) - Aug. 20, 2003, 07:03:52 PM EDT

In theory yes - (JayMehaffey) - (1) - Aug. 20, 2003, 08:04:57 PM EDT

Then others' childhood experience was quite different from - (Ashton) - Aug. 20, 2003, 09:22:47 PM EDT

Even in Indiana - it is not required. - (mmoffitt) - Aug. 27, 2003, 05:24:18 PM EDT

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