Re: Its not...

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Post #114,739 by pwhysall 8/21/03 11:59:25 AM Reply	Re: Its not... Chess clubs, for example, don't have a history of torturing and imprisoning people just because they have a different interpretation of the en passant rule. Religion is a special case for very good reasons. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #114,748 by bepatient 8/21/03 12:22:47 PM 8/21/03 12:29:45 PM Reply	Now we see... ...that your attitude >is< prejudicial. Edit: Removed potentially offensive language and then corrected spelling in the edit If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient] Edited by bepatient Aug. 21, 2003, 12:28:58 PM EDT Edited by bepatient Aug. 21, 2003, 12:29:45 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #114,818 by pwhysall 8/21/03 4:53:30 PM Reply	Say it ain't so. Religion kills people. Chess doesn't. Where do you want YOUR tax dollars to go? Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #114,857 by bluke 8/21/03 11:03:39 PM Reply	Nazis killed people yet, a Nazi group can use the school auditorium while a religious group cannot.
Post #114,863 by Silverlock 8/21/03 11:54:54 PM Reply	Got link? I don't know why, but this story about the Nazi's holding a recruitment meeting in a school auditorium seems a bit .... urban mythish. Was it a constant thing? An aberration that was rectified after the first occurrance? I'd like to know more. If this political group did hold these meetings, did the families in the neighborhood protest once they heard about it? Did they pick up the hitchhiker girl with the homecoming dress on? In front of the cemetary? ----------------------------------------- [link\|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html\|?W] Where were you in 72? [link\|http://www.blah3.com/graymatter/archives/00000420.html\|Fair and Balanced] sig
Post #114,901 by Arkadiy 8/22/03 10:13:39 AM Reply	OT: while looking for link, found this: [link\|http://upalumni.org/medschool/appendices/appendix-39f.html\|http://upalumni.org/...appendix-39f.html] -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #114,994 by Ashton 8/22/03 7:04:37 PM Reply	I don't quite grok his comment, About the whole Third Wave experiment, Jones admitted in an interview feelings of sickness and remorse. He proposes the question, "How far would you have gone?"[438] Stanley Milgram tried to answer that question. Was he surprised that Good-Nazis are so-easily made.. even here? And had he so little faith ;-) that - his Lesson would remain indelible - in all participants? Demonstration is ever so more educational than pious rationalizations needful of belief that, "We.. would never do That!" No? So why was he 'troubled'? (Perhaps he does not earnestly believe that the truth shall make you free -?- even though we realize the 'Arbeit' shtik was never supposed to mean anything, anyway..) Ashton
Post #114,887 by bepatient 8/22/03 8:15:30 AM Reply	I want the tax dollars... ...to go where the charter says... To all equally without regard. And in the case of religion...the Fed should have no stance at all...by charter..and as such the Constitution should NOT be held up as the doctrine that declares religion a "bad thing" in public life. As written...it should be >neutral. As currently interpreted it is not. I know your position. It is exactly that...a position. the US FED should not have one of those. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #114,896 by admin 8/22/03 9:36:28 AM Reply	I find it ironic... ... that the fact that religion was mentioned in the Constitution, in order to specifically protect it from discrimination, is being used to explicitly discriminate against it. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #114,898 by bepatient 8/22/03 9:44:10 AM Reply	Aye Cap'n...there's the rub. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #115,000 by Ashton 8/22/03 7:29:47 PM Reply	That is ever the danger of the uninformed literal mind.
Post #115,131 by mhuber 8/24/03 2:36:17 AM Reply	You are being misdirected The question at hand has nothing to do with the goodness or badness of religion. It has to do with children being forced, by a govornment employee in a position of authority, to make a political and religious statement. Chess clubs don't kill people, as far as I know, but that isn't the point - chess clubs don't demand that govornment authority figures make kids say "I beleive that chess rules America" every morning. ---- Sometime you the windshield, sometime you the bug, sometime you the driver you turn on the windshield washer you keep going.
Post #115,324 by Ashton 8/25/03 4:34:00 PM Reply	At Last:___The CRUX of the matter!
Post #115,340 by inthane-chan 8/25/03 7:08:47 PM Reply	You didn't know my chess coach. ;)
Post #115,371 by Silverlock 8/25/03 11:07:35 PM Reply	Exactly This is why I can't understand the "no difference" crew. ----------------------------------------- [link\|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html\|?W] Where were you in 72? [link\|http://www.blah3.com/graymatter/archives/00000420.html\|Fair and Balanced] sig
Post #115,373 by admin 8/25/03 11:11:26 PM Reply	Oh no, you don't. "No difference" has absolutely fucking NOTHING to do with being FORCED to do something. I am utterly, completely AGAINST forcing people to pledge a flag, acknowledge a god, or whatever. More messy thinking on your part. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #115,375 by Silverlock 8/25/03 11:13:35 PM Reply	Try this word Implicit. ----------------------------------------- [link\|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html\|?W] Where were you in 72? [link\|http://www.blah3.com/graymatter/archives/00000420.html\|Fair and Balanced] sig
Post #115,377 by admin 8/25/03 11:16:14 PM Reply	Try this one: Bullshit. There's a HUGE difference between a teacher standing up in front of a classroom forcing kids to say "under God", and a Christian group meeting in the cafeteria after hours. Give me a break. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #115,378 by Silverlock 8/25/03 11:27:30 PM Reply	Response noted Differences now abound. The authority implied in a school building doesn't really count. It's not strong enough compared to teacher leading prayers. Give me a break? Right back atcha. ----------------------------------------- [link\|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html\|?W] Where were you in 72? [link\|http://www.blah3.com/graymatter/archives/00000420.html\|Fair and Balanced] sig
Post #115,379 by admin 8/25/03 11:33:01 PM Reply	Substantively different in kind Not in magnitude. The teacher is acting in an official capacity. The religious group is meeting on their own time without official involvement. So yes, differences abound in this comparison, whether you care to see them or not. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #115,482 by boxley 8/26/03 9:26:49 PM Reply	Oy shift this crap into politics where it belongs, what the state wants needs or gets is a secular issue. How many arms yer fav disincorporated being has is a religous issue. Of coarse I would never do such a thing :-) thanx, Bill America, Love it or give it back questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #115,518 by bepatient 8/27/03 6:56:57 AM Reply	That would be unconstitutional ;-) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #115,572 by Ashton 8/27/03 3:49:24 PM Reply	Spoken like a Strict deConstructionist. . .

The Pledge of Allegiance is no longer required in schools - (orion) - (138) - Aug. 20, 2003, 09:46:32 AM EDT

Pledge of Allegiance no longer required? - (rcareaga) - (3) - Aug. 20, 2003, 09:58:54 AM EDT

Evidence - (orion) - (2) - Aug. 20, 2003, 02:58:50 PM EDT

Re: Evidence - (rcareaga) - (1) - Aug. 20, 2003, 04:47:57 PM EDT

Is this the news forum? - (orion) - Aug. 20, 2003, 05:14:01 PM EDT

Separation of Church and State. - (pwhysall) - (128) - Aug. 20, 2003, 10:08:57 AM EDT

It is not "separation"... - (bepatient) - (127) - Aug. 20, 2003, 01:11:42 PM EDT

I'll beg to differ. - (inthane-chan) - (24) - Aug. 20, 2003, 03:30:58 PM EDT

Beg all you like. - (bepatient) - (23) - Aug. 20, 2003, 03:58:10 PM EDT

That's not the point. - (inthane-chan) - (19) - Aug. 20, 2003, 04:07:47 PM EDT

No I got it. - (bepatient) - Aug. 20, 2003, 04:14:53 PM EDT

However, banning is exactly what is happening - (bluke) - (17) - Aug. 21, 2003, 04:25:40 AM EDT

Re: However, banning is exactly what is happening - (JayMehaffey) - (16) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:44:00 PM EDT

well stated -NT - (deSitter) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:45:14 PM EDT

Disagree completely. - (Steve Lowe) - (12) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:58:42 PM EDT

Correct... - (bepatient) - (6) - Aug. 21, 2003, 01:11:50 PM EDT

Threat to long-term survival. - (Ashton) - (5) - Aug. 21, 2003, 03:51:03 PM EDT

So who decides on what proper 'indoctrination' is? - (Steve Lowe) - (1) - Aug. 21, 2003, 04:28:19 PM EDT

Re: So who decides on what proper 'indoctrination' is? - (Ashton) - Aug. 22, 2003, 01:29:29 AM EDT

Dear me... - (bepatient) - (2) - Aug. 22, 2003, 08:02:30 AM EDT

An anticipated Bowdlerization. Let me Econ- it for ya: - (Ashton) - (1) - Aug. 22, 2003, 06:41:38 PM EDT

Not necessary... - (bepatient) - Aug. 22, 2003, 07:45:03 PM EDT

Doesn't have to be a specific religion - (JayMehaffey) - (4) - Aug. 21, 2003, 02:14:50 PM EDT

the constitution states ... - (bluke) - (3) - Aug. 21, 2003, 04:55:27 PM EDT

Well, up here - (jake123) - Aug. 21, 2003, 06:12:07 PM EDT

Thats the common translation now bluke... - (bepatient) - (1) - Aug. 22, 2003, 08:10:37 AM EDT

I agree with that wording - (Ashton) - Aug. 22, 2003, 07:36:27 PM EDT

Not true - (bluke) - (1) - Aug. 21, 2003, 04:52:14 PM EDT

I'm pretty much with you on that - (jake123) - Aug. 21, 2003, 06:14:48 PM EDT

Folie \ufffd deux.. folie \ufffd millon - Again!? - (Ashton) - (2) - Aug. 20, 2003, 06:35:37 PM EDT

Re: Folie \ufffd deux.. folie \ufffd millon - Again!? - (bepatient) - (1) - Aug. 21, 2003, 08:20:23 AM EDT

In context of peer (and teacher) pressure and required - (Ashton) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:51:45 AM EDT

Operative word - (Silverlock) - (98) - Aug. 20, 2003, 03:45:58 PM EDT

Agreed - (bepatient) - (97) - Aug. 20, 2003, 04:07:37 PM EDT

Nit picking - (Silverlock) - (95) - Aug. 20, 2003, 04:15:50 PM EDT

No I didn't miss it. - (bepatient) - (94) - Aug. 20, 2003, 04:28:27 PM EDT

(Op iff p) - (FuManChu) - Aug. 20, 2003, 05:25:30 PM EDT

I don't think I could disagree more - (Silverlock) - (92) - Aug. 21, 2003, 10:40:25 AM EDT

Well we will disagree entirely here. - (bepatient) - (35) - Aug. 21, 2003, 10:51:43 AM EDT

No it isn't. - (pwhysall) - (34) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:17:23 AM EDT

No that not what he said. - (bepatient) - (33) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:28:33 AM EDT

Re: No that not what he said. - (pwhysall) - (25) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:31:13 AM EDT

Its not... - (bepatient) - (24) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:49:23 AM EDT

Re: Its not... - (pwhysall) - (22) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:59:25 AM EDT

Now we see... - (bepatient) - (9) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:29:45 PM EDT

Say it ain't so. - (pwhysall) - (8) - Aug. 21, 2003, 04:53:30 PM EDT

Nazis killed people - (bluke) - (3) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:03:39 PM EDT

Got link? - (Silverlock) - (2) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:54:54 PM EDT

OT: while looking for link, found this: - (Arkadiy) - (1) - Aug. 22, 2003, 10:13:39 AM EDT

I don't quite grok his comment, - (Ashton) - Aug. 22, 2003, 07:04:37 PM EDT

I want the tax dollars... - (bepatient) - (3) - Aug. 22, 2003, 08:15:30 AM EDT

I find it ironic... - (admin) - (2) - Aug. 22, 2003, 09:36:28 AM EDT

Aye Cap'n...there's the rub. -NT - (bepatient) - Aug. 22, 2003, 09:44:10 AM EDT

That is ever the danger of the uninformed literal mind. -NT - (Ashton) - Aug. 22, 2003, 07:29:47 PM EDT

You are being misdirected - (mhuber) - (11) - Aug. 24, 2003, 02:36:17 AM EDT

At Last:___The CRUX of the matter! -NT - (Ashton) - Aug. 25, 2003, 04:34:00 PM EDT

You didn't know my chess coach. ;) -NT - (inthane-chan) - Aug. 25, 2003, 07:08:47 PM EDT

Exactly - (Silverlock) - (8) - Aug. 25, 2003, 11:07:35 PM EDT

Oh no, you don't. - (admin) - (4) - Aug. 25, 2003, 11:11:26 PM EDT

Try this word - (Silverlock) - (3) - Aug. 25, 2003, 11:13:35 PM EDT

Try this one: - (admin) - (2) - Aug. 25, 2003, 11:16:14 PM EDT

Response noted - (Silverlock) - (1) - Aug. 25, 2003, 11:27:30 PM EDT

Substantively different in kind - (admin) - Aug. 25, 2003, 11:33:01 PM EDT

Oy shift this crap into politics - (boxley) - (2) - Aug. 26, 2003, 09:26:49 PM EDT

That would be unconstitutional ;-) -NT - (bepatient) - (1) - Aug. 27, 2003, 06:56:57 AM EDT

Spoken like a Strict deConstructionist. . . -NT - (Ashton) - Aug. 27, 2003, 03:49:24 PM EDT

It is not the function of government at all. - (Ashton) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:13:12 PM EDT

Get it straight - (Silverlock) - (5) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:58:15 AM EDT

You've entirely missed the point of church-state separation - (deSitter) - (4) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:11:02 PM EDT

Re: You've entirely missed the point of church-state separat - (Ashton) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:27:52 PM EDT

Quibble about liberalism - (jake123) - (2) - Aug. 21, 2003, 06:28:33 PM EDT

yes - (deSitter) - (1) - Aug. 21, 2003, 07:13:48 PM EDT

A great Stine cartoon has graced my reefer for ages - (Ashton) - Aug. 22, 2003, 01:47:11 AM EDT

Good News Club v Milford Central Schools (1998) - (Another Scott) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:59:39 AM EDT

Can "Anti-Creationism Alliance" meet in the school gym? -NT - (Arkadiy) - (40) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:28:29 AM EDT

Why not. -NT - (bepatient) - (1) - Aug. 21, 2003, 11:28:56 AM EDT

I know your answer - (Arkadiy) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:16:18 PM EDT

It already does - (Silverlock) - (6) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:20:15 PM EDT

So, it's OK to advance the cause of Atheism on Govt property - (Arkadiy) - (5) - Aug. 21, 2003, 01:35:14 PM EDT

Not my point at all - (Silverlock) - (3) - Aug. 21, 2003, 01:49:56 PM EDT

Sorry. - (Arkadiy) - (2) - Aug. 21, 2003, 02:03:29 PM EDT

Which question? - (Silverlock) - (1) - Aug. 21, 2003, 03:02:19 PM EDT

Both, please? - (Arkadiy) - Aug. 22, 2003, 10:05:34 AM EDT

Umm we've had the 'A-theism' discussion several times - (Ashton) - Aug. 22, 2003, 01:55:21 AM EDT

Here's where I stand. - (inthane-chan) - (30) - Aug. 21, 2003, 12:42:44 PM EDT

Only the very best representatives - (Arkadiy) - Aug. 21, 2003, 01:37:48 PM EDT

Britney Spears. - (pwhysall) - Aug. 21, 2003, 04:58:10 PM EDT

Science is religion - (jake123) - Aug. 21, 2003, 06:35:39 PM EDT

Where I disagree with you - (Silverlock) - (26) - Aug. 21, 2003, 09:52:23 PM EDT

Discrimination - (bluke) - (24) - Aug. 22, 2003, 03:35:10 AM EDT

you answer your own question - (Silverlock) - (23) - Aug. 22, 2003, 11:54:00 AM EDT

Perversion of the Constitution. - (admin) - (22) - Aug. 22, 2003, 12:12:36 PM EDT

See my response to Beep - (Silverlock) - (21) - Aug. 22, 2003, 12:35:21 PM EDT

Which part of it? - (admin) - (20) - Aug. 22, 2003, 12:47:25 PM EDT

I don't agree - (Silverlock) - (19) - Aug. 22, 2003, 12:58:11 PM EDT

And its discriminatory. - (bepatient) - Aug. 22, 2003, 01:04:15 PM EDT

Don't see how you can call that logical. - (admin) - (15) - Aug. 22, 2003, 01:28:16 PM EDT

Argument from authority - (Silverlock) - (14) - Aug. 24, 2003, 09:18:29 AM EDT

Wrong. Lame attempt at misdirection. - (admin) - (13) - Aug. 24, 2003, 09:37:20 AM EDT

The law is in regards to faith. - (Silverlock) - (12) - Aug. 25, 2003, 10:26:49 AM EDT

Doesn't matter what the law is about. - (admin) - (11) - Aug. 25, 2003, 10:48:16 AM EDT

Ok - (Silverlock) - (10) - Aug. 25, 2003, 11:58:23 AM EDT

Heh heh... - (bepatient) - (1) - Aug. 25, 2003, 12:07:51 PM EDT

Braap - (Silverlock) - Aug. 25, 2003, 12:11:57 PM EDT

... - (admin) - Aug. 25, 2003, 12:11:49 PM EDT

I agree with your point, Don. - (a6l6e6x) - (6) - Aug. 25, 2003, 12:47:07 PM EDT

Er... *legal* groups. - (admin) - (3) - Aug. 25, 2003, 01:16:21 PM EDT

But ritual animal sacrifice is perfectly legal. - (a6l6e6x) - (2) - Aug. 25, 2003, 02:34:16 PM EDT

Cool... - (bepatient) - Aug. 25, 2003, 02:38:18 PM EDT

Goes in same category as the rest of the legal groups then. -NT - (admin) - Aug. 25, 2003, 02:47:07 PM EDT

And I know those... - (bepatient) - (1) - Aug. 25, 2003, 01:25:47 PM EDT

OK for just now: perhaps made illegal____just after WW-III? -NT - (Ashton) - Aug. 25, 2003, 04:00:14 PM EDT

Um, no . Current case law says the opposite - (mhuber) - (1) - Aug. 24, 2003, 02:44:21 AM EDT

Good, that's how it should be. -NT - (admin) - Aug. 24, 2003, 09:37:58 AM EDT

It seems to have come to 'about that', no? - (Ashton) - Aug. 22, 2003, 03:44:23 AM EDT

Some serious disagreement - (jake123) - (14) - Aug. 21, 2003, 06:25:54 PM EDT

No - (Silverlock) - (13) - Aug. 21, 2003, 10:09:41 PM EDT

That is very nice - (bluke) - (12) - Aug. 22, 2003, 12:26:33 AM EDT

Its outright prejudicial.. - (bepatient) - (11) - Aug. 22, 2003, 08:18:10 AM EDT

You actually believe that? - (Silverlock) - (10) - Aug. 22, 2003, 12:29:33 PM EDT

Admin stated the views adequately above. -NT - (bepatient) - Aug. 22, 2003, 12:58:19 PM EDT

Amtrack is federally subsidized - (Arkadiy) - (3) - Aug. 22, 2003, 12:59:28 PM EDT

He wants his money back ;-) -NT - (bepatient) - Aug. 22, 2003, 01:04:57 PM EDT

Silly, but it does raise an interesting point.. - (hnick) - (1) - Aug. 22, 2003, 01:21:59 PM EDT

Exactly. The motivation should be moot. - (admin) - Aug. 22, 2003, 01:30:36 PM EDT

Riding in the back of the bus - (jake123) - (4) - Aug. 22, 2003, 02:35:20 PM EDT

Where do you draw the line? - (Silverlock) - (3) - Aug. 22, 2003, 04:28:32 PM EDT

Re: Where do you draw the line? - (admin) - (2) - Aug. 22, 2003, 05:10:33 PM EDT

Was that a surrender or a .. Gah !?__:-\ufffd -NT - (Ashton) - (1) - Aug. 22, 2003, 07:48:04 PM EDT

It was an attempt at illogic - (admin) - Aug. 22, 2003, 09:55:43 PM EDT

Declared unconstitutional? - (mhuber) - Aug. 24, 2003, 02:23:07 AM EDT

No free exercise is being touched here - (JayMehaffey) - (2) - Aug. 20, 2003, 08:21:54 PM EDT

Thats not at issue... - (bepatient) - (1) - Aug. 21, 2003, 08:22:01 AM EDT

Good. - (pwhysall) - Aug. 21, 2003, 08:30:24 AM EDT

2 different issues - (JayMehaffey) - (3) - Aug. 20, 2003, 02:39:45 PM EDT

Must disagree with the "remedy". Again. - (Ashton) - (2) - Aug. 20, 2003, 07:03:52 PM EDT

In theory yes - (JayMehaffey) - (1) - Aug. 20, 2003, 08:04:57 PM EDT

Then others' childhood experience was quite different from - (Ashton) - Aug. 20, 2003, 09:22:47 PM EDT

Even in Indiana - it is not required. - (mmoffitt) - Aug. 27, 2003, 05:24:18 PM EDT

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