2 different issues

Post #114,589 by JayMehaffey 8/20/03 2:39:45 PM Reply	2 different issues Saying the pledge has not be required for a long time. In 1943 it was established that schools could not require that students say the pledge. This suit was brought a Jehovah's Witness group, on the ground that their religion prohibited them from pledging to a flag. This suit actually occured before the phrase 'under God' was added. The new suit is basicly arguing that just letting students not say the pledge isn't enough. If the teacher is at the front of the class leading the students then there is a coercive element that makes it an unconstitutional establishment of religion. Personally, I've got mixed feeling on this. On the one hand, the idea that the phrase 'under God' isn't a reference to a particular belief system is absurd. Just imagine the complaints that would be spit out of the phrase was changed to 'under gods'. If it was truely neutral then it should be acceptable either way. And I do object to having religion forced down upon people that way. But on the other hand, its really a minor issue. As long as the rule that students are allowed to sit out the pledge is enforced, the argument about that phrase is trivial. There are a lot more important issues that need to be addressed. Jay And there are places in the US where that needs some help.
Post #114,627 by Ashton 8/20/03 6:57:15 PM 8/20/03 7:03:52 PM Reply	Must disagree with the "remedy". Again. But on the other hand, its really a minor issue. As long as the rule that students are allowed to sit out the pledge is enforced, the argument about that phrase is trivial. There are a lot more important issues that need to be addressed. This is merely more obfuscation of the fundamental issue. cf. my post above. It is a Very Bad Habit especially* to inculcate in The Young! -- as this sloppiness in perception, in analysis of the consequences and.. all which follows from that mindset-of-sloppiness: IS What Got US Where We Are Today, with Who! We Have Allowed to 'Lead' US, and Wherever THAT-All is taking US NEXT ---> -?- Rest case. Ashton (For the old and concrete-set mentations: Let Them Die Off amidst their illusions, peacefully as possible - but let not These! further fuck up this culture.. now nearing its death-throes over a variety of er Issues of Conscience.) Edit- grammar Edited by Ashton Aug. 20, 2003, 07:03:52 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #114,648 by JayMehaffey 8/20/03 8:04:57 PM Reply	In theory yes In theory I agree, it's not like I'm going to object to seeing the pledge removed or returned to it's original wording. In practice, there is a lot of other things I consider a lot more important. Even if your goal is to give children a better education and teach them to think for themselves, a lot more can probably be gained reworking textbooks and training teachers better. Jay
Post #114,652 by Ashton 8/20/03 9:22:47 PM Reply	Then others' childhood experience was quite different from mine - I Noticed the inconsistencies and the 'sliding principles' (remember - a 'military school' is allegedly about 'following rules'.. and not just about what shoes to wear. (Granted that military 'justice', like m. music.. yada yada - but we were Reading too. And it wasn't the Real military, thank Gawd.)) I think that the children Notice and Remember -- and that's why it's so EZ later, to morph into PHB after the first taste of power over 'subordinates'. Whore/price/yes-no Yup, maybe I'm weird. Still, I think 'We' are Weird, now - more weird than ever before; and in acute possibly terminal denial. Ashton

Welcome to IWETHEY!