Post #114,521
8/20/03 8:10:16 AM
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Minor nit...
..is that there is still a "colonial power" operating in the region...and that would be Israel.
In fact...its one of the principle reasons for the violence today.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #114,525
8/20/03 8:48:35 AM
8/20/03 9:01:51 AM
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How is Israel a colonial power?
The Jews have had a continous presence (at times small) since the destruction of the temple unil now. The archeological and historical facts undeniably tie the Jews to the land. Jews have been praying since the destruction of the temple in 70 CE) to return to their land.
Edited by bluke
Aug. 20, 2003, 09:01:51 AM EDT
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Post #114,539
8/20/03 10:00:51 AM
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Fifty years vs. nineteen hundred and thirty years
Which one of those was ancient history again?
The way I see it, Israel has a major problem; their economy is dependent on cheap Palestinian labour; without it, their economy will go tits up, so they have to let them in. That's the real reason they can't stop the suicide bombings; it's impossible to tell bombers from workers with 100% reliability.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #114,546
8/20/03 10:42:16 AM
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Not really
The Palestinians need the jobs more then Israel needs them. It is the US, EU, etc. who are constantly pressuring Israel to let Palestinian workers in because otherwise they have nowhere to work.
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Post #114,558
8/20/03 12:07:01 PM
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So why don't they stop them coming in?
Or is the fact that the US puts pressure on considering that the US gives more than a billion a year to Israel have a lot more to do with it?
What would the economy in Israel be like without foreign aid and Palestinian labour?
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #114,683
8/21/03 2:53:30 AM
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Because the US and the EU want them to let them in
The US influence is not really an issue of money. The money that the US gives to Israel is a very small percentage of the budget and in fact most if it has to be spent in the US. The primary benificiary of the aid money are US arms manufacturers. The US has tremendous influence because of it's role as the sole superpower in the world.
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Post #114,789
8/21/03 2:22:34 PM
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Many countries have told the US to go stuff themselves
there's no reason Israel need be any different.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #114,815
8/21/03 4:40:23 PM
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There certainly is
There is no other country that is under attack at the UN like Israel. I forget the number, buit a huge percentage of UN resolutions are against Israel. Israel needs the US on the security council.
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Post #114,824
8/21/03 5:09:42 PM
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Why are the resolutions being passed?
Ask yourselves that. And "wah wah we're Jewish so everyone hates us the bastard nazi thugs!" isn't the answer.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #114,853
8/21/03 10:59:07 PM
8/22/03 12:22:56 AM
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For one, anti-smeitism definately plays a role
secondly there are 22 Arab countries, a whole bunch of non-Arab muslim countries, and a whole bunch of countries dependent on Arab oil.
Whatever you think about Israel it should be clear to any thinking person that Israel is not the problem in the world. Yet from the number of UN resolutions it certainly looks that way. Even Kofi Anan has admitted that the UN has been anit-Israel.
The 2002 Durban Anti-RAcism conference is a perfect example. Israel is clearly not the most racist country in the world and neither is it a big source of racism, yet Israel was the focus of the conference, what is your explanation?
Edited by bluke
Aug. 22, 2003, 12:22:56 AM EDT
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Post #114,841
8/21/03 9:58:27 PM
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Cough...no argument there
The money that the US gives to Israel is a very small percentage of the budget and in fact most if it has to be spent in the US. The primary benificiary of the aid money are US arms manufacturers.
Best possible way for US Politicians to get graft to Defense Contractors - give US billions to another country and then demand that other country spend said billions buying US Defense contracts. Quick question - is it good for Israel in the long run? I know it's not good for the US in the long run.
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Post #114,855
8/21/03 11:00:41 PM
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No it's not
and a number of prominent people in Israel have said it. However, it is hard to implement.
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Post #114,560
8/20/03 12:16:53 PM
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Most of the current violence...
...centers around land...taken by force...and being "settled" by Jews. It was not land granted by the original charter nor is it land granted to them by God since the dawn of recorded civilization. The 1947 charter had the strip and included territories as land that was to become an independent arab state.
I forgot that the other colonial power in the region is the US...but they are occupied on the other coast at the moment.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #114,686
8/21/03 3:04:53 AM
8/21/03 10:19:28 AM
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Not correct
The 1947 resolution was rejected by the Arabs and in any case was only advisory. In fact the only international agreement with any standing regarding the West Bank and Gaza is the 1922 San Remo conference agreement which gives the Jews the explicit permission to settle all over Palestine including the West Bank and Gaza. See my post [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=114717|here] for some links relating to this.
Edited by bluke
Aug. 21, 2003, 10:19:28 AM EDT
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Post #114,881
8/22/03 6:48:36 AM
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Also
There are reasonable grounds that Britain and Franch double-crossed the Arabs in 1947/8.
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
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Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #114,526
8/20/03 8:57:36 AM
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Of course, blame the Jews
It amazes me how Israel is blamed for the all of the ill's of the region. Is it Israel's fault that Saddam invaded Kuwait? Or even the fact that Saddam was in power? Is it Israel's fault that all 22 Arab countries are corrupt dictatorships? Did Israel put Assad in power? Is Israel somehow holding Egypt back? Is Israel somehow preventing the Saudi's from opening up their society? Why is it that Israel with all of the war's has managed to build a modern society with a GDP of $17,000, while absorbing millions of Jewish refugees on a tiny sliver of land with no resources and the arabs have not?
Israel is a great scapegoat for the Arab world. The Arab world somehow justifies all kinds of things because of Israel, for example martial law in Syria.
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Post #114,561
8/20/03 12:30:32 PM
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Lesse...
It amazes me how Israel is blamed for the all of the ill's of the region. Is it Israel's fault that Saddam invaded Kuwait? No...but what does that have to do with a) my post and b) bus bombs in Tel Aviv? Or even the fact that Saddam was in power? see above Is it Israel's fault that all 22 Arab countries are corrupt dictatorships? Nope Did Israel put Assad in power? Nope Is Israel somehow holding Egypt back? Nope Is Israel somehow preventing the Saudi's from opening up their society? Nope Why is it that Israel with all of the war's has managed to build a modern society with a GDP of $17,000, while absorbing millions of Jewish refugees on a tiny sliver of land with no resources and the arabs have not? Becasue they are better at applying the billions in aid to productive use than the arabs are at spending their oil money...maybe? Israel is a great scapegoat for the Arab world. The Arab world somehow justifies all kinds of things because of Israel, for example martial law in Syria. The arab world might do this...but I didn't. 2 decades of terrorism against Israel over a 10 mile wide strip of beach that was supposed to be an independent state. Hell...every US major city has its slum right next door...outside of its jursidiction...NY has Newark...Philly has Camden, St Louis has East St Louis etc...cut'em loose ferchrissakes...its more trouble than its worth. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #114,685
8/21/03 3:02:08 AM
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Barak offered more at Camp David in 2000 ...
and look what the answer was. In truth most people in Israel would have no problem with getting rid of the Gaza Strip. However, it would not solve the problem. The Arabs want everything. Nabil Shaath an important minister in the PA stated over the weekend in a speech that of course the Palestinian refugees will be returning to Haifa, Jaffa, etc. They want their own Palestinian state with 0 Jews and then they want to innundate the Jewish state with 3 million Arabs. Their are already 22 Arab states with 99% of the land, do they really need a 23rd state. In addition, the British already created a Palestinian state on 80% of Palestine Jordan.
In addition, Hebron, Jerusalem and the other cities in Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) are historic Israel. Jerusalem is where the 2 temples stood, Hebron is where Abraham Issac and Jacob are buried, Nablus, Joseph, Bethlehem, Rachel. These are cities with ancient Jewish conenctions.
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Post #114,710
8/21/03 8:32:07 AM
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Apparently they do.
Becasue that 23rd state has been a demand for quite some time.
Nonsense to you? Oh well.
Sure there is more involved...rights of those who live and work in Israel, fate of the areas of religious significance in the West Bank...but this consistent stubborn attitude about settlements in gaza and the protection of these by violence against others...does NOT actually look like a willing stance in negotiations.
They kill someone, Isreal kills someone...the last few months have both sides pointing at the other and saying "they started it" like a bunch of schoolkids.
The Arab League >certainly< shoulders a certain amount of the blame here. But do you honestly expect them to try and solve >any< issue surrounding the creation of Israel?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #114,717
8/21/03 9:47:15 AM
8/21/03 10:17:12 AM
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Where was that demand from 1948-1967?
Did anyone ask for or try to establish a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza when the Arabs ruled there? No! Who doesn't UN Resolution 242 (1967) talk about a Palestinian state? Because no one dreamed of it. It is only after Israel won the Six Day war which was brought on by the Arabs and the Yom Kippur War (1973) that suddenly the Arabs started demanding a Palestinain state. Here are some links to articles which explains the legal status of the West Bank and Gaza
[link|http://www.freeman.org/m_online/jun01/shusteff2.htm|THE MYTH OF "OCCUPIED" TERRITORIES]
[link|http://www.netanyahu.org/inlawreglano.html|THE INTERNATIONAL LAW REGARDING THE LAND OF ISRAEL AND JERUSALEM ]
here is a link to the mandate itself [link|http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/jerusalem/jerusalem73g.html|1922 LEAGUE OF NATIONS MANDATE] in particular see article 6
" The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes. "
it is unfortunate that more people don't know these basic facts.
Edited by bluke
Aug. 21, 2003, 09:48:32 AM EDT
Edited by bluke
Aug. 21, 2003, 10:03:56 AM EDT
Edited by bluke
Aug. 21, 2003, 10:17:12 AM EDT
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Post #114,724
8/21/03 11:13:30 AM
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Prior to 1967
the west back and gaza were occupied by Egypt and Jordan.
After 67 Israel "posessed" the Sanai, Golan Heights, the west bank and Gaza.
So, you see, the "arabs" didn't need to ask for those areas to be controlled by arabs...because they >were<.
ARGENTINA, AUSTRALIA, BELGIUM, BOLIVIA, BRAZIL, CANADA, CHILE, CHINA, COLOMBIA, CUBA, CZECHOSLOVAKIA, DENMARK, EL SALVADOR, FRANCE, GREECE, GUATEMALA, HAITI, HONDURAS, INDIA, ITALY, JAPAN, LIBERIA, NETHERLANDS, NEW ZEALAND, NICARAGUA, NORWAY, PANAMA, PARAGUAY, PERSIA, PERU, POLAND, PORTUGAL, RUMANIA, SIAM, SPAIN, SWEDEN, SWITZERLAND, SOUTH AFRICA, UNITED KINGDOM, URUGUAY, VENEZUELA, YUGOSLAVIA, ALBANIA, AUSTRIA, BULGARIA, COSTA RICA, FINLAND, LUXEMBOURG, ESTONIA, LATVIA, LITHUANIA, HUNGARY
What is that you ask? Why its the membership of the league of nations in 1922. I don't notice anyone there even remotely located in the Middle East. Does it surprise you, then, that there is no recognition by these people of decisions made by these organizations?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #114,761
8/21/03 12:44:28 PM
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{cackle} Arabs must be slow.. in slogan-building
No Taxation Nation-creation Without Representation!
(Catch (19)22 - one must Be a Nation to request Admission or Protest same. Is the Planet unclear on the concept?)
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Post #114,778
8/21/03 1:40:16 PM
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That would be a problem.
But the "nation" existed. Only the lines >we< recognize were not.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #114,814
8/21/03 4:38:35 PM
8/21/03 4:46:10 PM
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Wait, you mean the Palestinians are just Arabs
If so they already have 22 countries. The West Bank and Gaza were controlled by Arabs but not Palestinians, rather Egypt and Jordan. If so why didn't the Palestinians (and the world) demand an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza from 1948-1967 instead of Jordanian and Egyptian rule? The fact is that no one suggested establishing a separate Palestinian state because there never has been one and there never was a separate Palestinian identity until the 1970's.
Regarding your second point, all of the Arab countries came into existence based on that same conference.
Edited by bluke
Aug. 21, 2003, 04:42:42 PM EDT
Edited by bluke
Aug. 21, 2003, 04:46:10 PM EDT
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Post #114,536
8/20/03 9:50:47 AM
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If Israel did not exist,
it would have been invented. It's not a principal reason for violence, it's the main outlet for hatred. If it weren't there, some other outlets would have to be found. In fact, the hatred reaches such proportions that Israel is no longer sufficient to serve as the only outlet. US is getting some action. Indonesia. And now, even UN. I wonder how long before France feels the heat.
--
Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them.
--Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
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Post #114,696
8/21/03 4:30:02 AM
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It's not nice
to point out the rather mechanical stimulus/response behaviour of homo-saps: they imagine that they are sentient, and that there are Ponderous Reasons for behaving like stupid jerks.
(You aren't advocating introspection, now are you? ;-)
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