Could be if you hadn't murdered him

Post #114,476 by deSitter 8/20/03 3:38:28 AM Reply	Could be if you hadn't murdered him ..we'd have a better more humane world. He wasn't around very long - not much time to implement the message. -drl
Post #114,478 by bluke 8/20/03 3:50:54 AM Reply	So you are one of those ... who believe that the Jews killed Jesus. You are in good company, you and Mel Gibson. Of course, according to Christianianity, Jesus died for everyones sins so it is hard to see why anyone should be blamed for his death. In fact, considering that Christians consider him to be divine and the Son of God, that must have been the plan. In any case, considering the havoc that Christians have wreaked on the world, what makes you think that if Jesus had lived a little longer his followers would have been any less violent and bloodthirsty?
Post #114,482 by deSitter 8/20/03 3:57:32 AM Reply	Even in those days.. ..you couldn't separate church and state. You killed a political prisoner, plain and simple, for being in the wrong church. -drl
Post #114,485 by bluke 8/20/03 4:00:51 AM Reply	Really??? Thr Romans had nothing to do with it? Maybe the Romans killed him because he was stirring things up? remember in the yera 32 or 33 the Jews did not control the land, the Romans did.
Post #114,486 by deSitter 8/20/03 4:01:45 AM Reply	Re: Really??? As usual, you needed imperial help to do your work. You people seem to be quite willing to align yourselves with world-straddling bullies when it is convenient for you. -drl
Post #114,489 by bluke 8/20/03 4:24:42 AM Reply	The Jews were allied with the Romans??? Really, please learn a little history, the Romans conquered the land and then the Jews rebelled, teh Jews were not in any way in cahoots with the Romans. For a modern Christian perspective on who killed Jesus see [link\|http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/134/42.0.html\|CT Classic: Who Killed Jesus?]
Post #114,493 by deSitter 8/20/03 4:36:26 AM Reply	Re: The Jews were allied with the Romans??? [link\|http://www.robotwisdom.com/science/jesus.html\|http://www.robotwisd...cience/jesus.html] [link\|http://cc.usu.edu/~fath6/Nazarenes.htm\|http://cc.usu.edu/~fath6/Nazarenes.htm] Kuehl also makes interesting use of statments by the apostle Paul to support the stoning hypothesis. Paul was stoned at Antioch [Acts 14:19; 2 Corinthians 11:25]. He was so severely wounded that he was left for dead. Although he recovered, he apparantly bore the scars of this treatment for the rest of his life. In Galatians he wrote, "Howbeit ye know that by reason of a weakness of the flesh I myself announced the glad-message unto you formerly; and your trial in my flesh ye despised not, neither spat ye in disgust...For I bear you witness -- that if possible your eyes ye would have dug out and given unto me [Galatians 4:13-15]. Since the head is a major target in stoning, damage to the eyes was not uncommon. When Paul wrote, For I, the brandmarks [i.e., scars] of Jesus in my body am bearing [Galatians 6:17], his statement would have been literally true had Jesus been stoned. The word "brandmarks" here is the Greek word stigma (from the root stizo), meaning "to make incised or punched marks that have resulted in scars". Since Roman crucifixion did not involve stoning, these statements by Paul suggest that it was the Jewish form that was imposed on Yashua. Since this form also results in a quicker death than did the Roman form, a Jewish execution would also explain why Pilate, who had assumed the execution would be by the Roman method, was surprised at how quickly Jesus had died. Pilate "wondered whether already he was dead," and even "calling near the centurion, questioned him -- whether he had already died" [Mark 15:43-44]. Kuehl gives two other arguments in support for the claim that Yashua underwent stoning and hanging rather than simple crucifixion. In Revelation 5:6 Jesus is called the "Lamb as it had been slain". The Greek word translated "slain" in this verse is sphazo. It means "to butcher, slaughter, maim, mangle, or wound". Again, the meaning is very apt for the effects of stoning. Finally, the disfiguring effects of stoning would explain why Jesus was not initially recognized by his disciples on various occasions when he appeared to them after his resurrection. -drl
Post #114,497 by bluke 8/20/03 4:49:31 AM Reply	We could debate this point forever How exactly Jesus was killed and why is not clear in the historical record.
Post #114,500 by deSitter 8/20/03 4:56:32 AM Reply	Uh huh There is not a shred of doubt about the following items: 1) Rome ruled Judea with the help of Jews, just as the US hopes to rule Iraq with the help of Moslems 2) Jesus was a political prisoner who was murdered by the local governance 3) Christianity contained a kernel of ethical truth alongside the mass of superstition, and it led to the idea of representative government based on the assumed worth of every individual - something that does not exist in Judaism (read Job) or Islam. One of the worthy individual's rights is to believe what he chooses, and to replace his benign government with a tyranny. That seems to be happening here. -drl
Post #114,505 by bluke 8/20/03 5:36:04 AM Reply	How do you get from Christianity ... to the idea of representative government based on the assumed worth of every individual? If anything, the Church opposed that idea until it was impractical.
Post #114,530 by Arkadiy 8/20/03 9:41:04 AM Reply	"does not exist in Judaism (read Job)" Proving non-existance of idea by reading a single book? DeS, where is you math background? You should know better. -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #114,567 by deSitter 8/20/03 1:03:44 PM Reply	Re: "does not exist in Judaism (read Job)" IMO there are three central sections of the Bible: 1) The exposition of a harsh and arbitrary Mosaic law, in Deuteronomy 2) The demonstration of the pitilessness of the God of Abraham, in Job 3) The message of humanity in the Gospels The lesson of the first two is: God is to be obeyed and not understood. Love is not part of it, and your intrinsic worth is irrelevant. The lesson of the third is: God himself is in you in part, and he cares. -drl
Post #114,634 by Ashton 8/20/03 7:25:22 PM Reply	Heh Terse Brillaince Award, with sloe gin cluster Now if only.. the average Christian understood what all that stuff meant, in between reloading, firing and Pontificating.
Post #114,640 by boxley 8/20/03 7:40:52 PM Reply	good thing it wasnt today you all would be running around wearing little electric chairs around your necks :-) lenny bruce. America, Love it or give it back questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]

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