Very relevant

Post #114,457 by bluke 8/20/03 12:11:09 AM 8/20/03 12:21:24 AM Reply	Very relevant Desitter commented "You both have so much blood on your hands" I was just pointing out that the Christian world has a lot more blood on their hands. In fact, I would bet that the total number of people killed in the Arab Israeli conflict is less then 100,000 people. When you look at the havoc that Western world has wreaked (including in the last 50 years) everything else pales in comparison. Here are some random things from the past 50 years. Who propped up dictators like Saddam Hussein? Who has protected Saudia Arabi for the past 50 years? Who drew the map of the Middle East and Africa and created a bunch of countries which make no sense (like Iraq, Rwanda, Congo, etc. which consist of a number of different ethnic groups which tear the countries apart). Who supported a coup in Argentina in the 1970's which led to the disappearnce of thousands of people? Who put teh Shah of Iran in power? The list could go on forever. In truth, most of the problems in the world today can be laid at the feet of the European powers who drew the maps of Africa and the Middle East in such a way that the only way these countries could stay together was to be ruled with an iron fist by one ethnic group over all the others. Why is it that most of Africa consists of failed states and has undergone civil war after civil war? Why is it that everyone was worried about Iraq breaking apart? Edited by bluke Aug. 20, 2003, 12:21:24 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #114,462 by jake123 8/20/03 12:28:37 AM Reply	Thought you were answering my post. my mistake. That said... all that colonial stuff wrapped up fifty years ago. If Deir Yassin should be ignored due to its age, so should all those other things you mention, as should Israeli claims to Israel; their possession of that land ended much more than fifty years ago (c. 2000 years) while Palestinian posession of that land ended considerably more recently. If claims to victimisation are going to be judged by age (more recent == more relevant) than Zionist claims to the land of Israel are seriously trumped by other, far more recently dispossessed people. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #114,473 by bluke 8/20/03 3:14:09 AM Reply	Colonialism and it's effects today Although colonialism ended 50 years ago it's effects are definately being felt today. When the colonial powers drew the borders, they paid no attention to tribal and ethnic concerns and just threw different groups together. That is why there was such great concern that Iraq would fall apart after the war, because Iraq is a creation of the British (that pu together Shiites, Kurds and Sunnis) that really makes no sense. The only reason it stayed together is because of the iron rule of someone like Sadddam. This has led to states that are only viable if 1 group takes control and oppresses the other.
Post #114,477 by deSitter 8/20/03 3:39:30 AM Reply	Bullsh*t Your problems stem from the unification of church and state. Your church is a anachronistic joke, and your state a totalitarian hodgepodge that would last about 10 minutes without being propped up by us. -drl
Post #114,479 by bluke 8/20/03 3:52:52 AM Reply	As usual you completely missed the point I was not talking about Israel at all. Israel is quite a success considering everything. I was talking about the various Arab countries in the Middle East (like Iraq) and the various countries of Africa which are absolute and utter failures.
Post #114,484 by deSitter 8/20/03 3:59:57 AM Reply	Re: As usual you completely missed the point Ah, you are chosen, I forget - so even simple geography doesn't apply to you. Praise Abraham, Hail Caesar. Let's see - Syria: ME Jordan: ME Lebanon: ME Eqypt: ME Israel: Land of doe breasts -drl
Post #114,488 by bluke 8/20/03 4:21:40 AM Reply	And in fact ... Israel is the only modern democratic society in the region. WIth a GDP of over $17,000 Israel is doing pretty well expecially considering the defense costs. Have you heard of Checkpoint, ICQ, RSA etc? In fact, Intel\ufffds new high-speed Centrino technology\ufffd which doubles battery life on laptops \ufffd was developed entirely in Israel. These are all either Israeli companies or have had significant contributions from Israelis. What have the Arab nations contributed to the world besides suicide bombings?
Post #114,491 by deSitter 8/20/03 4:27:13 AM Reply	Excellent finger food! -drl
Post #114,511 by pwhysall 8/20/03 7:14:14 AM Reply	Numerals, Algebra, Astronomy. What's Israel done again? Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #114,514 by bluke 8/20/03 7:23:18 AM Reply	Yeah, 1000 years ago I was talking about in the last 100 years.
Post #114,518 by pwhysall 8/20/03 7:41:32 AM Reply	Israel has done bugger all Well, not really. You've given us two great goa psychedelic trance bands - Astral Projection and Infected Mushroom. And you gave the world the IMI Desert Eagle handgun. Good job! Not bad for a puppet state. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #114,519 by bluke 8/20/03 7:59:55 AM 8/20/03 8:01:56 AM Reply	I guess you don't use a laptop with an Intel Centrino chip or Pentium with MMX, or ICQ, or Checkpoint, or Windows bidi support, a cell phone with Java, etc. all made in Israel. And just what has Britian contributed to the world lately? Edited by bluke Aug. 20, 2003, 08:01:18 AM EDT Edited by bluke Aug. 20, 2003, 08:01:56 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #114,522 by pwhysall 8/20/03 8:22:01 AM Reply	Re: I guess you don't use a laptop with an Intel Centrino ch Woo! Consumer Electronics! Big. Wow. Centrino - American money (Intel). Java phone - American money (Sun). Windows - American money (Microsoft). What has Britain contributed to the world? Apart from the telephone, the television, the programmable computer, the hovercraft, supersonic passenger transport, the dictionary, the thesaurus, the suspension bridge, reinforced concrete, the jet engine, and the Spice Girls, nothing much. Oh, and my favourite invention ever: The Bayliss Freeplay wind-up radio. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #114,524 by hnick 8/20/03 8:26:19 AM Reply	Ooops.... Spice Girls? Too bad. One AwShit deletes 10,000 AtaBoys. So sorry. /me ducks
Post #114,639 by boxley 8/20/03 7:38:39 PM Reply	the Uzi, dont forget Uzi's sheesh America, Love it or give it back questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #114,643 by a6l6e6x 8/20/03 7:51:13 PM Reply	and the Markava tank, an imperialist tool! :) And some 250-300 nuclear weapons. Care to talk about where the technology came from? Alex "Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something." -- last words of Pancho Villa (1877-1923)
Post #114,645 by boxley 8/20/03 7:58:30 PM Reply	the uzi? was locally designed over there and is as popular as the AK47 in some parts. nukes? What nukes :-) thanx, bill America, Love it or give it back questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #114,638 by boxley 8/20/03 7:37:18 PM Reply	Colonial date again? What capital is yellow knife :-) and what year did the colonists turn it over :-) stones, glass houses etc. hanx, bill America, Love it or give it back questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #114,646 by jake123 8/20/03 7:59:43 PM Reply	Not the point I didn't make the claim that fifty years old was too old to matter. That's not my claim at all. I'm only pointing out the inconsistency in supporting a nearly 2K year old claim for land whilst ignoring an inconvenient claim for war crimes. His words to the contrary, Bluke seems to agree; he doesn't seem to think that fifty years is too long to bring up Xtian atrocities... only Jewish ones, for some reason I can't quite fathom. And then there's the attempt to deflect the conversation once he realised his essential logical problem... "don't look at us! Look at them! That's a lot worse than us!" Besides, while Nunavut was formed in the late eighties, in practical fact the membership and staffing of the former NWT government has been largely Innu for many years before that. Of course, the extension to their authority within Nunavut (as opposed to a traditional Canadian territory like the rest of NWT and The Yukon) is not to be taken lightly; it does represent a real advance to their ability to run their own affairs. There have been some growing pains... part of the problem is the essential one that the tax base has been vanishingly small compared to the expenses; do you have any idea how much it costs to attempt to supply sanitation services in a place where the ground is frozen year-round? However, now that the diamond mines up there are beginning to come on line, I expect that Nunavut's fiscal situation is going to improve markedly. A similar situation exists for most of the Cree villages in Le Grand Nord du Québec; the money is provincial, but the administration is Cree. This is a good thing; you can have nothing remotely resembling a typeical Western-style capitalist economy in permafrost country. It's hard to be profitable when you dare not turn your truck off in winter for fear the gas will freeze in the fuel line. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #114,647 by boxley 8/20/03 8:02:34 PM Reply	On Profits yes it is hard to take profits from the North, thats why Hydro Quebec doesnt share any of the money they make from the James Bay project. Same reason none of the Oil in the Makenzie Delta is shared with the locals. Yup, no money to be made, right then about this Parrot Ive got for sale. thanx, bill America, Love it or give it back questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #114,649 by jake123 8/20/03 8:08:05 PM Reply	Hey, you still don't get the point I'm making the idea of a consumer supported economy up there doesn't work nearly as well; you have to make SO much more money just to cover your basic costs because they are many times higher than they are in nice temperate climes like we've got down here. Oh, yeah... Hydro Quebec actually does share money from James Bay... just not enough, according to the Cree. Couldn't tell you about Mackenzie River Delta oil, though... prolly a back room deal from the Bad Old Days. Fortunately, over the course of the last twenty years it's become pretty clear that the Bad Old Days are over; witness the very large chunk of ownership of diamond mining local tribes are getting up there. The big growth industry right now is diamond cutting; the Innu want to do the cutting because that's the step with the most value-add. The good part? They have enough ownership clout to make it happen once they get enough guys schooled in how it's done. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #114,654 by boxley 8/20/03 10:01:36 PM Reply	point !=missed even though it costs a boatload of cash to provide services up there, that boatload is less than the profits removed every day from that area by Canadian and multinational companies with Canadian Government blessing. Back wages are in order dont you think? thanx, bill America, Love it or give it back questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #114,655 by jake123 8/20/03 10:04:23 PM Reply	Are they in order for the descendents of black slaves in the US? --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #114,657 by boxley 8/20/03 10:10:15 PM Reply	Nope, to the still living up until emancipation If you were born in the last 10 years, entitled thanx, bill America, Love it or give it back questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]

Welcome to IWETHEY!