Post #114,410
8/19/03 7:36:15 PM
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The killing of innocents is a tradition of the children
of Abraham. See for example about the events at [link|http://www.deiryassin.org/mas.html|Deir Yassin]. Islam like Christianity is an outgrowth of Judaism. I suspect that Judaism is where sanctions for the tradition began.
Alex
I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do Evil in return.
-- W.H. AUDEN, "September 1, 1939"
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Post #114,440
8/19/03 11:29:44 PM
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Deir Yassin if it happened was over 50 years ago ...
Why change the subject to long dead history? The fact is that the Arabs have bestowed suicide bombings on the world, and because it first only targeted Jews the world didn't care.
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Post #114,441
8/19/03 11:30:59 PM
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If fifty years ago is long dead history
then I guess the idea that Jews have some exclusive claim to parts of the ME due to events from two to five thousand years ago is a complete non-starter, no?
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #114,448
8/19/03 11:37:18 PM
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In this context, yes 50 years is a long time
I was talking about the Arabs slaughtering innocent people with suicide bombings, not historical claims to the land of Israel.
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Post #114,442
8/19/03 11:32:13 PM
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Re: Deir Yassin if it happened was over 50 years ago ...
You both have so much blood on your hands that you've lost the right to speak about it among civilized men. I would pray to your vengeful, bitter, and mean-spirited God for forgiveness - but then I realize that there is none in him.
How I wish your two sides would simply cancel, like matter and antimatter.
-drl
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Post #114,445
8/19/03 11:35:50 PM
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And you don't????
How many innocent people were killed in the firebombing of Dresden? Nagasaki? The European Christian world (which is the basis of the US) has killed more people then any other group in history by far.
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Post #114,450
8/19/03 11:38:35 PM
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Relevance?
You can try to divert attention away from the point at hand if you want, but it doesn't wash here.
If fifty years ago is "dead history to be ignored" according to your own words, how is 2000 year old history supposed to be considered relevant? I didn't make up the yardstick, you did.
You need to try again.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #114,457
8/20/03 12:11:09 AM
8/20/03 12:21:24 AM
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Very relevant
Desitter commented "You both have so much blood on your hands" I was just pointing out that the Christian world has a lot more blood on their hands. In fact, I would bet that the total number of people killed in the Arab Israeli conflict is less then 100,000 people. When you look at the havoc that Western world has wreaked (including in the last 50 years) everything else pales in comparison. Here are some random things from the past 50 years.
Who propped up dictators like Saddam Hussein? Who has protected Saudia Arabi for the past 50 years? Who drew the map of the Middle East and Africa and created a bunch of countries which make no sense (like Iraq, Rwanda, Congo, etc. which consist of a number of different ethnic groups which tear the countries apart). Who supported a coup in Argentina in the 1970's which led to the disappearnce of thousands of people? Who put teh Shah of Iran in power? The list could go on forever.
In truth, most of the problems in the world today can be laid at the feet of the European powers who drew the maps of Africa and the Middle East in such a way that the only way these countries could stay together was to be ruled with an iron fist by one ethnic group over all the others. Why is it that most of Africa consists of failed states and has undergone civil war after civil war? Why is it that everyone was worried about Iraq breaking apart?
Edited by bluke
Aug. 20, 2003, 12:21:24 AM EDT
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Post #114,462
8/20/03 12:28:37 AM
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Thought you were answering my post.
my mistake.
That said... all that colonial stuff wrapped up fifty years ago. If Deir Yassin should be ignored due to its age, so should all those other things you mention, as should Israeli claims to Israel; their possession of that land ended much more than fifty years ago (c. 2000 years) while Palestinian posession of that land ended considerably more recently. If claims to victimisation are going to be judged by age (more recent == more relevant) than Zionist claims to the land of Israel are seriously trumped by other, far more recently dispossessed people.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #114,473
8/20/03 3:14:09 AM
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Colonialism and it's effects today
Although colonialism ended 50 years ago it's effects are definately being felt today. When the colonial powers drew the borders, they paid no attention to tribal and ethnic concerns and just threw different groups together. That is why there was such great concern that Iraq would fall apart after the war, because Iraq is a creation of the British (that pu together Shiites, Kurds and Sunnis) that really makes no sense. The only reason it stayed together is because of the iron rule of someone like Sadddam. This has led to states that are only viable if 1 group takes control and oppresses the other.
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Post #114,477
8/20/03 3:39:30 AM
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Bullsh*t
Your problems stem from the unification of church and state. Your church is a anachronistic joke, and your state a totalitarian hodgepodge that would last about 10 minutes without being propped up by us.
-drl
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Post #114,479
8/20/03 3:52:52 AM
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As usual you completely missed the point
I was not talking about Israel at all. Israel is quite a success considering everything. I was talking about the various Arab countries in the Middle East (like Iraq) and the various countries of Africa which are absolute and utter failures.
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Post #114,484
8/20/03 3:59:57 AM
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Re: As usual you completely missed the point
Ah, you are chosen, I forget - so even simple geography doesn't apply to you. Praise Abraham, Hail Caesar.
Let's see - Syria: ME Jordan: ME Lebanon: ME Eqypt: ME Israel: Land of doe breasts
-drl
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Post #114,488
8/20/03 4:21:40 AM
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And in fact ...
Israel is the only modern democratic society in the region. WIth a GDP of over $17,000 Israel is doing pretty well expecially considering the defense costs. Have you heard of Checkpoint, ICQ, RSA etc? In fact, Intel\ufffds new high-speed Centrino technology\ufffd which doubles battery life on laptops \ufffd was developed entirely in Israel. These are all either Israeli companies or have had significant contributions from Israelis. What have the Arab nations contributed to the world besides suicide bombings?
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Post #114,491
8/20/03 4:27:13 AM
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Excellent finger food!
-drl
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Post #114,511
8/20/03 7:14:14 AM
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Numerals, Algebra, Astronomy.
What's Israel done again?
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #114,514
8/20/03 7:23:18 AM
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Yeah, 1000 years ago
I was talking about in the last 100 years.
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Post #114,518
8/20/03 7:41:32 AM
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Israel has done bugger all
Well, not really.
You've given us two great goa psychedelic trance bands - Astral Projection and Infected Mushroom.
And you gave the world the IMI Desert Eagle handgun.
Good job! Not bad for a puppet state.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #114,519
8/20/03 7:59:55 AM
8/20/03 8:01:56 AM
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I guess you don't use a laptop with an Intel Centrino chip
or Pentium with MMX, or ICQ, or Checkpoint, or Windows bidi support, a cell phone with Java, etc. all made in Israel.
And just what has Britian contributed to the world lately?
Edited by bluke
Aug. 20, 2003, 08:01:18 AM EDT
Edited by bluke
Aug. 20, 2003, 08:01:56 AM EDT
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Post #114,522
8/20/03 8:22:01 AM
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Re: I guess you don't use a laptop with an Intel Centrino ch
Woo! Consumer Electronics!
Big. Wow.
Centrino - American money (Intel). Java phone - American money (Sun). Windows - American money (Microsoft).
What has Britain contributed to the world? Apart from the telephone, the television, the programmable computer, the hovercraft, supersonic passenger transport, the dictionary, the thesaurus, the suspension bridge, reinforced concrete, the jet engine, and the Spice Girls, nothing much.
Oh, and my favourite invention ever: The Bayliss Freeplay wind-up radio.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #114,524
8/20/03 8:26:19 AM
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Ooops.... Spice Girls?
Too bad. One AwShit deletes 10,000 AtaBoys. So sorry.
/me ducks
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Post #114,639
8/20/03 7:38:39 PM
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the Uzi, dont forget Uzi's sheesh
America, Love it or give it back
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #114,643
8/20/03 7:51:13 PM
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and the Markava tank, an imperialist tool! :)
And some 250-300 nuclear weapons.
Care to talk about where the technology came from?
Alex
"Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something." -- last words of Pancho Villa (1877-1923)
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Post #114,645
8/20/03 7:58:30 PM
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the uzi? was locally designed over there
and is as popular as the AK47 in some parts.
nukes? What nukes :-)
thanx,
bill
America, Love it or give it back
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #114,638
8/20/03 7:37:18 PM
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Colonial date again? What capital is yellow knife :-)
and what year did the colonists turn it over :-) stones, glass houses etc.
hanx,
bill
America, Love it or give it back
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #114,646
8/20/03 7:59:43 PM
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Not the point
I didn't make the claim that fifty years old was too old to matter. That's not my claim at all. I'm only pointing out the inconsistency in supporting a nearly 2K year old claim for land whilst ignoring an inconvenient claim for war crimes.
His words to the contrary, Bluke seems to agree; he doesn't seem to think that fifty years is too long to bring up Xtian atrocities... only Jewish ones, for some reason I can't quite fathom.
And then there's the attempt to deflect the conversation once he realised his essential logical problem... "don't look at us! Look at them! That's a lot worse than us!"
Besides, while Nunavut was formed in the late eighties, in practical fact the membership and staffing of the former NWT government has been largely Innu for many years before that. Of course, the extension to their authority within Nunavut (as opposed to a traditional Canadian territory like the rest of NWT and The Yukon) is not to be taken lightly; it does represent a real advance to their ability to run their own affairs.
There have been some growing pains... part of the problem is the essential one that the tax base has been vanishingly small compared to the expenses; do you have any idea how much it costs to attempt to supply sanitation services in a place where the ground is frozen year-round? However, now that the diamond mines up there are beginning to come on line, I expect that Nunavut's fiscal situation is going to improve markedly.
A similar situation exists for most of the Cree villages in Le Grand Nord du Québec; the money is provincial, but the administration is Cree. This is a good thing; you can have nothing remotely resembling a typeical Western-style capitalist economy in permafrost country. It's hard to be profitable when you dare not turn your truck off in winter for fear the gas will freeze in the fuel line.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #114,647
8/20/03 8:02:34 PM
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On Profits
yes it is hard to take profits from the North, thats why Hydro Quebec doesnt share any of the money they make from the James Bay project. Same reason none of the Oil in the Makenzie Delta is shared with the locals. Yup, no money to be made, right then about this Parrot Ive got for sale.
thanx,
bill
America, Love it or give it back
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #114,649
8/20/03 8:08:05 PM
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Hey, you still don't get the point I'm making
the idea of a consumer supported economy up there doesn't work nearly as well; you have to make SO much more money just to cover your basic costs because they are many times higher than they are in nice temperate climes like we've got down here.
Oh, yeah... Hydro Quebec actually does share money from James Bay... just not enough, according to the Cree. Couldn't tell you about Mackenzie River Delta oil, though... prolly a back room deal from the Bad Old Days.
Fortunately, over the course of the last twenty years it's become pretty clear that the Bad Old Days are over; witness the very large chunk of ownership of diamond mining local tribes are getting up there. The big growth industry right now is diamond cutting; the Innu want to do the cutting because that's the step with the most value-add. The good part? They have enough ownership clout to make it happen once they get enough guys schooled in how it's done.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #114,654
8/20/03 10:01:36 PM
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point !=missed
even though it costs a boatload of cash to provide services up there, that boatload is less than the profits removed every day from that area by Canadian and multinational companies with Canadian Government blessing. Back wages are in order dont you think?
thanx,
bill
America, Love it or give it back
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #114,655
8/20/03 10:04:23 PM
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Are they in order for the descendents of black slaves
in the US?
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #114,657
8/20/03 10:10:15 PM
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Nope, to the still living up until emancipation
If you were born in the last 10 years, entitled
thanx,
bill
America, Love it or give it back
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #114,456
8/20/03 12:08:27 AM
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Re: And you don't????
Ah, how regrettable that the Crusades failed. Let's have another!
-drl
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Post #114,458
8/20/03 12:14:58 AM
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What about more recent events???
Like the support (or even installlment) of various dictators all over the world (Iran, Iraq, Argentina, Saudia Arabia for starters) while they slaughtered their people. The fire bombing of Dresden, Nagasaki (only 60 years ago). The creation of a whole bunch of non-viable countries in Africa leading to the slaughter of millions. The list goes on and on.
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Post #114,461
8/20/03 12:23:59 AM
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Re: What about more recent events???
Ah, it must be nice to be Chosen.
Somewhere in Hell, Abraham and Mohammed must be battling each other with flamethrowers.
If there were two men whose effects on civilization could be completely erased post-hoc, I would pick those two.
-drl
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Post #114,470
8/20/03 3:06:44 AM
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Why not Jesus?
After all more many people have been killed in the name of Christianity then Judaism anf Islam combined.
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Post #114,476
8/20/03 3:38:28 AM
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Could be if you hadn't murdered him
..we'd have a better more humane world. He wasn't around very long - not much time to implement the message.
-drl
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Post #114,478
8/20/03 3:50:54 AM
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So you are one of those ...
who believe that the Jews killed Jesus. You are in good company, you and Mel Gibson. Of course, according to Christianianity, Jesus died for everyones sins so it is hard to see why anyone should be blamed for his death. In fact, considering that Christians consider him to be divine and the Son of God, that must have been the plan.
In any case, considering the havoc that Christians have wreaked on the world, what makes you think that if Jesus had lived a little longer his followers would have been any less violent and bloodthirsty?
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Post #114,482
8/20/03 3:57:32 AM
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Even in those days..
..you couldn't separate church and state. You killed a political prisoner, plain and simple, for being in the wrong church.
-drl
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Post #114,485
8/20/03 4:00:51 AM
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Really???
Thr Romans had nothing to do with it? Maybe the Romans killed him because he was stirring things up? remember in the yera 32 or 33 the Jews did not control the land, the Romans did.
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Post #114,486
8/20/03 4:01:45 AM
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Re: Really???
As usual, you needed imperial help to do your work. You people seem to be quite willing to align yourselves with world-straddling bullies when it is convenient for you.
-drl
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Post #114,489
8/20/03 4:24:42 AM
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The Jews were allied with the Romans???
Really, please learn a little history, the Romans conquered the land and then the Jews rebelled, teh Jews were not in any way in cahoots with the Romans. For a modern Christian perspective on who killed Jesus see [link|http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/134/42.0.html|CT Classic: Who Killed Jesus?]
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Post #114,493
8/20/03 4:36:26 AM
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Re: The Jews were allied with the Romans???
[link|http://www.robotwisdom.com/science/jesus.html|http://www.robotwisd...cience/jesus.html]
[link|http://cc.usu.edu/~fath6/Nazarenes.htm|http://cc.usu.edu/~fath6/Nazarenes.htm]
Kuehl also makes interesting use of statments by the apostle Paul to support the stoning hypothesis. Paul was stoned at Antioch [Acts 14:19; 2 Corinthians 11:25]. He was so severely wounded that he was left for dead. Although he recovered, he apparantly bore the scars of this treatment for the rest of his life. In Galatians he wrote, "Howbeit ye know that by reason of a weakness of the flesh I myself announced the glad-message unto you formerly; and your trial in my flesh ye despised not, neither spat ye in disgust...For I bear you witness -- that if possible your eyes ye would have dug out and given unto me [Galatians 4:13-15]. Since the head is a major target in stoning, damage to the eyes was not uncommon.
When Paul wrote, For I, the brandmarks [i.e., scars] of Jesus in my body am bearing [Galatians 6:17],
his statement would have been literally true had Jesus been stoned. The word "brandmarks" here is the Greek word stigma (from the root stizo), meaning "to make incised or punched marks that have resulted in scars".
Since Roman crucifixion did not involve stoning, these statements by Paul suggest that it was the Jewish form that was imposed on Yashua. Since this form also results in a quicker death than did the Roman form, a Jewish execution would also explain why Pilate, who had assumed the execution would be by the Roman method, was surprised at how quickly Jesus had died. Pilate "wondered whether already he was dead," and even "calling near the centurion, questioned him -- whether he had already died" [Mark 15:43-44].
Kuehl gives two other arguments in support for the claim that Yashua underwent stoning and hanging rather than simple crucifixion. In Revelation 5:6 Jesus is called the "Lamb as it had been slain". The Greek word translated "slain" in this verse is sphazo. It means "to butcher, slaughter, maim, mangle, or wound". Again, the meaning is very apt for the effects of stoning. Finally, the disfiguring effects of stoning would explain why Jesus was not initially recognized by his disciples on various occasions when he appeared to them after his resurrection.
-drl
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Post #114,497
8/20/03 4:49:31 AM
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We could debate this point forever
How exactly Jesus was killed and why is not clear in the historical record.
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Post #114,500
8/20/03 4:56:32 AM
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Uh huh
There is not a shred of doubt about the following items:
1) Rome ruled Judea with the help of Jews, just as the US hopes to rule Iraq with the help of Moslems
2) Jesus was a political prisoner who was murdered by the local governance
3) Christianity contained a kernel of ethical truth alongside the mass of superstition, and it led to the idea of representative government based on the assumed worth of every individual - something that does not exist in Judaism (read Job) or Islam.
One of the worthy individual's rights is to believe what he chooses, and to replace his benign government with a tyranny. That seems to be happening here.
-drl
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Post #114,505
8/20/03 5:36:04 AM
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How do you get from Christianity ...
to the idea of representative government based on the assumed worth of every individual? If anything, the Church opposed that idea until it was impractical.
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Post #114,530
8/20/03 9:41:04 AM
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"does not exist in Judaism (read Job)"
Proving non-existance of idea by reading a single book? DeS, where is you math background? You should know better.
--
Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them.
--Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
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Post #114,567
8/20/03 1:03:44 PM
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Re: "does not exist in Judaism (read Job)"
IMO there are three central sections of the Bible:
1) The exposition of a harsh and arbitrary Mosaic law, in Deuteronomy
2) The demonstration of the pitilessness of the God of Abraham, in Job
3) The message of humanity in the Gospels
The lesson of the first two is: God is to be obeyed and not understood. Love is not part of it, and your intrinsic worth is irrelevant. The lesson of the third is: God himself is in you in part, and he cares.
-drl
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Post #114,634
8/20/03 7:25:22 PM
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Heh
Terse Brillaince Award, with sloe gin cluster
Now if only.. the average Christian understood what all that stuff meant, in between reloading, firing and Pontificating.
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Post #114,640
8/20/03 7:40:52 PM
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good thing it wasnt today
you all would be running around wearing little electric chairs around your necks :-)
lenny bruce.
America, Love it or give it back
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #114,507
8/20/03 5:49:04 AM
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C'mon deS.. et al. Blame All on the Jews.. Again ?! (new thread)
Created as new thread #114506 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=114506|C'mon deS.. et al. Blame All on the Jews.. Again ?!]
"Prince of Peace" -?- Maybe Jesus was and hoped it caught on, despite the miserably retarded creatures he encountered. But.. Alas..
It didn't: NEVER in his followers and successive generations of misogynist rewriters, bizarre-Popes and zealous missionary-warriors (and their cultural-genocides against the hapless and helpless).
(Less'n we just rewrite all That history, too?)
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Post #114,471
8/20/03 3:08:28 AM
8/20/03 3:16:29 AM
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Really???
How about the Khmer Rouge? Rwanda where the Hutus and Tutsi slaughtered each other? N. Korea? China? Were Hitler and Stalin Christians (and did they attempt to justify their actions based on the Bible?)? The fact is that the human race is brutal and deadly without the need to come on to any 1 religion.
Edited by bluke
Aug. 20, 2003, 03:16:29 AM EDT
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