Post #114,243
8/18/03 9:02:47 PM
8/18/03 9:10:54 PM
|
And what would you propose Ross?
You bitch about p-code languages like Java, but aren't Python and PHP about the same (interpreted languages)? Then we have Todd, pushing Smalltalk or Squeak, another interpreted language.
Scott M. would tell you that Python is the "new lingua franca".
With 2.4ghz processors the norm, and 3.0ghz processors annouced and 4-5ghz next year, what's the problem with p-code?
I work in a C++ environment, after having just left a Java environment, and guess what? I'd rather be doing Java, PHP, Python, or just about anything other than C++. Not that the language is particularly difficult for me, it just seems to take FOREVER to get things done, compared to Java or Python.
I'm in the process of pushing Java, PHP, or Python now, in my new job, because we have a need to GET THINGS DONE.
So what would you propose? Assembly language?
Are you the Delphi bigot here? Let me guess, you are...
I actually like Delphi, what I've done of it. But, unfortunately, Elvis has left the building, and most people have already relegated Delphi to the recycle bin. The user base isn't growing, it's shrinking.
I know of a handful of Delphi projects in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area, but they're maintenance. No one is doing new code in Delphi that I know of.
And with processor power where it is, and doubling again every 18 months, I can't say that I blame them for seeking rapid development, interpreted solutions.
I'm not saying that you're bad, or Delphi is bad. But it's kind of like deciding to remain a COBOL programmer. Over time your options will become ever more limited.
So, either you cling onto the past, seek the next project in "your" language, or you decide to learn something new.
Perhaps, you could teach Java some new tricks, just like Jython is currently extending Java with Python-like capabilities. DelJav? JavaPhi? (sound likes of fraternity-ish)
Glen
Edited by gdaustin
Aug. 18, 2003, 09:09:48 PM EDT
Edited by gdaustin
Aug. 18, 2003, 09:10:54 PM EDT
And what would you propose Ross?
You bitch about p-code languages like Java, but aren't Python and PHP about the same (interpreted languages)? Then we have Todd, pushing Smalltalk or Squeak, another interpreted language.
Scott M. would tell you that Python is the "new lingua franca".
With 2.4ghz processors the norm, and 3.0ghz processors annouced and 4-5ghz next year, what's the problem with p-code?
I work in a C++ environment, after having just left a Java environment, and guess what? I'd rather be doing Java, PHP, Python, or just about anything other than C++. Not that the language is particularly difficult for me, it just seems to take FOREVER to get things done.
I'm in the process of pushing Java, PHP, or Python now, in my new job, because we have a need to GET THINGS DONE.
So what would you propose? Assembly language?
Are you the Delphi bigot here? Let me guess, you are...
I actually like Delphi, what I've done of it. But, unfortunately, Elvis has left the building, and most people have already relegated Delphi to the recycle bin. The user base isn't growing, it's shrinking.
I know of a handful of Delphi projects in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area, but they're maintenance. No one is doing new code in Delphi that I know of.
And with processor power where it is, and doubling again every 18 months, I can't say that I blame them for seeking rapid development, interpreted solutions.
I'm not saying that you're bad, or Delphi is bad. But it's kind of like deciding to remain a COBOL programmer. Over time your options will become ever more limited.
So, either you cling onto the past, seek the next project in "your" language, or you decide to learn something new.
Perhaps, you could teach Java some new tricks, just like Jython is currently extending Java with Python-like capabilities. DelJav? JavaPhi? (sound likes of fraternity-ish)
Glen
|
Post #114,244
8/18/03 9:13:30 PM
|
More
I will give you Delphi guys this. You're passionate about the language. And if you know it, there are a LOT of handy dandy utilities.
I like the thing someone did a few months ago to my Delphi code (when I was doing Delphi). I had a 200 line routine to calculate yesterday, and they basically replaced it with a 1 line routine that said something like today() - 1.
Sadly, I've turned in the laptop from the old job, so my Delphi coding days are over.
The market is Java, Python, PHP, or VB. With a little bit of C and C++ left.
And as computers get faster and faster, more and more solutions will be based on interpreted environments.
Glen
|
Post #114,245
8/18/03 10:04:24 PM
|
You've confused DRL (APL bigot) with CRC (Delphi bigot)! :-)
|
Post #114,251
8/18/03 11:00:32 PM
8/18/03 11:02:45 PM
|
Oops! Sorry!
But APL is interpreted!
So what is he complaining about? Should I revise the post to remove my blather about Delphi?
Edited by gdaustin
Aug. 18, 2003, 11:02:45 PM EDT
|
Post #114,265
8/19/03 1:03:42 AM
|
Re: Oops! Sorry!
APL is not P-code, nor is Smalltalk. Smalltalk is byte-code, which is much different and like FORTH, "compiled interpretation". BASIC is none of the above. P-code is stupid and inefficient, was rightly rejected in 1980 (UCSD Pascal), and is barely a step above BASIC.
APL, FORTH, and Smalltalk all have a REAL VM with direct, immediate interpretation, not a stupid fucked-up P-code interpreter.
-drl
|
Post #114,292
8/19/03 7:41:03 AM
|
I think it depends on your definition of "p-code".
Nowadays, to most people the term "p-code" means rather more than what UCSD Pascal used to create. It's true that Smalltalk create a intermediate form often called "byte-code", but it is virtual assembly language for the specific virtual machine. Quite a lot of modern languages work like this - so much that the stage in front normally called a compiler has a common name: translater. Even BASIC interpreters of past actually ran virtual code in a virtual machine: almost all of the home computer BASICs translated the entered text into tokens for storage - a pseudo-code, if you like. Of course, the single biggest thing you've overlooked is that all these pseudo-codes are extremely tailored for their language and their environment.
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
|
Post #114,349
8/19/03 3:44:47 PM
|
Rexx on warp does something similar
It creates tokenized code. That code is stored in the command file's extended attribute, leading to a much quicker load time on subsequent runs of the code. It works extremely well and really helps performance.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
|
Post #115,033
8/23/03 3:00:48 AM
|
Good example.
Other variations would be how Perl and PHP do it - translation on invocation, p-code is thrown away after execution - and how Icon and Java do it - explicit translation to a second file. It's even obvious with Icon: the program you run is called icont - meaning Icon Translator.
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
|
Post #115,247
8/25/03 12:06:59 AM
|
I've actually been thinking about this for a while
I'm thinking that perhaps for my honour project (if I can afford a fourth year of school) I'd like to take a shot at writing an object rexx interpreter, to be licensed under the GPL. For one thing, there are some serious problems with the object rexx interpreter under warp when you want to interface it to programs written in C, since the RexxStart call doesn't account for the fact that object rexx programs can be threaded, which means that one can end up leaving open semaphores until process termination... which can terminally suck for daemons. The problem is that IBM won't fix it unless one wants to dole out some serious money. The other solution is a wholesale replacement of the subsystem... and if it was written properly, it should end up being easily portable to other systems: a dll in warp, a program in unix, and a plugin for wsh in windows.
I don't think that I'd be able to do a complete reimplementation or anything, but if I could get something that covered most of the basics, opening it up to the developer community by putting it under the GPL could make it something that would be viable in the long run.
This is all at least a year away, of course; I think I might be in a position to start looking at it seriously towards the end of this coming school year (second year).
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
|
Post #114,266
8/19/03 1:04:07 AM
|
I propose intelligence. I have no hope of course.
-drl
|
