Re: One more time.

Post #110,880 by Nightowl 7/22/03 11:16:24 AM Reply	Re: One more time. Very slowly. IMO, It's. Not. Political. Speech. It's self promotion for a magazine article where his picture is on the cover along with the button. The button created (from what I read) to promote the article. That's been my point all along. I don't agree that this was political speech. You can argue with that all day long. What you can't do is say I'm arguing opposite sides. Unless, of course, you intentionally ignore my oft-repeated statement that I regard this as a self promotional advertisement. I have REALLY tried to stay out of this, but I have to stand up here and say I see what Silverlock is saying. I don't see it as a political statement either. And what's worse really, is if the man had simply removed the button when asked, he would have been fine. Just like we hand over our tweezers and nail clippers and everything else. But he had to make a stink over it, which is why there is even a problem in the first place. I understand that some of the measures taken seem silly, but honestly, if we all cooperated more, the lines would go faster, the security would be more efficient, and hopefully, the goal intended, which is to make air travel safer, would be achieved. Nightowl >8# (so extremely glad I do NOT fly.) "Only dead fish swim with the stream." Linda Ellerbee
Post #110,884 by drewk 7/22/03 11:45:00 AM Reply	No, no and no I don't see it as a political statement either. The point of overtly polictical speech is for it to be noticed. That necessarily involves drawing attention to yourself. So it can involve some self promotion. Does this mean that campaign commercials are not political speech, because they are explicitly promoting themselves? And what's worse really, is if the man had simply removed the button when asked, he would have been fine. So he'd have been fine if he simply allowed himself to be censored. Umm, I believe that was his point. Just like we hand over our tweezers and nail clippers and everything else. Again, that was his point. That we are allowing ourselves to be bullied, cowed, searched, and have our property confiscated. These are the things suspects are subjected to. But he had to make a stink over it, which is why there is even a problem in the first place. No, there is a problem in the first place because we are all being treated as suspects. I understand that some of the measures taken seem silly, Not seem: are. but honestly, if we all cooperated more, the lines would go faster, the security would be more efficient, and hopefully, the goal intended, which is to make air travel safer, would be achieved. The goal is to convince people "Something Is Being Done". In your case, at least, it seems to be working. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #110,886 by Nightowl 7/22/03 11:53:55 AM Reply	Re: No, no and no Drewk wrote:>>The goal is to convince people "Something Is Being Done". In your case, at least, it seems to be working.<< All I know is that we haven't had another hijacking, or another plane flown into a major US building since 9/11/01, and that tells me they must be doing something right. Nightowl >8# P.S. Sorry Scott, I tried quoting this properly four times, and still had unmatched something or other, so I gave up and did it this way. "Only dead fish swim with the stream." Linda Ellerbee
Post #110,899 by boxley 7/22/03 12:31:17 PM Reply	do you moo when you go to the airport? I suppose cattle prods would move folks along more efficiently and faster. My question is this, if I am a terrorist planning a strike is false ID a problem? No. Is getting a weapon abourd a plane a problem? No. The problem that is being solved is to disallow people to trade tickets to each other without the airlines making a buck. That is the problem being solved here. Intimidation of passengers to allow any indignity just to be able to board that plane. That is being solved so well the airlines are failing. These things have nothing to do with safety, thwy have to do with control. I suppose you think gun registration is safer also. thanx, bill questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #110,900 by Nightowl 7/22/03 12:36:00 PM 7/22/03 12:36:33 PM Reply	Re: do you moo when you go to the airport? I suppose cattle prods would move folks along more efficiently and faster. My question is this, if I am a terrorist planning a strike is false ID a problem? No. Is getting a weapon abourd a plane a problem? No. The problem that is being solved is to disallow people to trade tickets to each other without the airlines making a buck. That is the problem being solved here. Intimidation of passengers to allow any indignity just to be able to board that plane. That is being solved so well the airlines are failing. These things have nothing to do with safety, thwy have to do with control. I suppose you think gun registration is safer also. Hmm, well, I don't go to the airport much, except on occasion to pick someone up, so I don't need to moo. Mostly I hoot. ;) I don't know about gun registration, I think it's good to be able to track a weapon when it killed someone, but on the other hand, I don't know that it truly makes us safer from being killed. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl Edited by Nightowl July 22, 2003, 12:36:33 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #110,926 by drewk 7/22/03 3:12:06 PM Reply	I also haven't been trampled by any elephants since 9/11 I guess those airport security measures are working really well. What? You say the airport security measures have nothing whatsoever to do with my not getting trampled by an elephant? But it hasn't happened since they started those security procedures. Get it? === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #110,960 by jb4 7/22/03 5:53:18 PM Reply	ROFL! jb4 The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not. Candyce Burns (my wife)
Post #111,014 by Nightowl 7/22/03 10:29:29 PM Reply	Re: I also haven't been trampled by any elephants since 9/11 I guess those airport security measures are working really well. What? You say the airport security measures have nothing whatsoever to do with my not getting trampled by an elephant? But it hasn't happened since they started those security procedures. Get it? Honestly? No I don't get it. Because as I tried to explain in my previous post, I was afraid of crashing airplanes after 9/11. I haven't been given reason to be afraid of elephants trampling me, like I was given reason to be afraid of planes crashing into buildings. Get it? Nightowl >8# Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001. "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,019 by boxley 7/22/03 10:48:29 PM Reply	Why are you afraid of crashing Airplanes? Some nutbag stands up screaming Allah is going to kill us all no one is going to wait around to have the pilot handle it. He/She is going to be killed by the women who's husband is cheating on her and she knows it the guy whose back has been kicked by a little kid 3 thousand times in the last minute the guy jammed between 2 300 pounders the lady whose nipple was examined with hoots and grunts by dumass securityt folks the granny who only wants to get to see her grandkids one more time me who has a legitimate reason to murder someone with their bare handsbecause I was was delayed for 16 hrs due to fuckwits who run security. guess what, plane lands safely. terrorist might live long nough for tial. thanx, bill questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #111,026 by Nightowl 7/22/03 11:07:17 PM Reply	Re: Why are you afraid of crashing Airplanes? Well, I didn't understand most of your post or why it was relevant, sorry. But I was afraid of airplanes crashing into my house because they crashed into the Twin Towers. Didn't matter how illogical it was that a plane would choose my house to crash into, nonetheless, that is where my fears after 9/11 manifested themselves. Since most of your post talked about the people on the plane that would crash, I don't know how it applies to me, sorry. I was simply afraid of one crashing into my house. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,030 by Another Scott 7/22/03 11:17:47 PM Reply	Boxish to English translation. "Why are you concerned about someone hijacking a plane and crashing it into a building? Since 9/11, if someone attempts to hijack a plane, no passenger is going to sit idly by and let the pilot and crew handle the situation. The hijacker would be attacked by the angry passengers. If the hijacker is lucky, he or she might survive the ordeal long enough to stand trial." Thus (by my inference of boxley's post), you're safer now than you were before 9/11 due to increased vigilance by your fellow passengers - not due to the actions or statements by Department of Homeland Security. HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #111,040 by Nightowl 7/22/03 11:59:22 PM Reply	Re: Boxish to English translation. Thus (by my inference of boxley's post), you're safer now than you were before 9/11 due to increased vigilance by your fellow passengers - not due to the actions or statements by Department of Homeland Security. I agree Scott, the passengers who stop the hijackers are also part of the "placebo" concept. Basically, knowing anything whatsoever is being done to change the circumstances which led to 9/11 helps to ease my mind. And just for a moment, think in terms of the hijackers. Maybe they are also deterred not only by the security measures in place, but also the fact that now they might have to deal with angry passengers bent on stopping them. It all adds up one piece at a time to be one more protective measure. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,033 by boxley 7/22/03 11:22:00 PM Reply	Well do you cower in fear that cars, and cows crash into your house? Everytime you here a siren do you crawl under the bed in case it is chasing a criminal into your abode? When you here strange noises do you quickly grab a shotgun, jack a shell into the chamber and start hunting strangers? Fear is a good thing, it keeps us alive. Irrational fear invoked by strange events needs to be analysed and statistically evaluated as rational or hysteria. Your chances of a plane landing on your house is much greaater by pilots who suffer a heart attack in a small plane than terrorists aiming at you. So please explain why your irrational fear of terrorists require me to kiss some govt flunkies ass to get where I am going. Not picking on you, just trying to have you think unintended consequences. thanx, bill questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #111,044 by Nightowl 7/23/03 12:12:50 AM Reply	Re: Well do you cower in fear that cars, and cows crash into your house? Everytime you here a siren do you crawl under the bed in case it is chasing a criminal into your abode? When you here strange noises do you quickly grab a shotgun, jack a shell into the chamber and start hunting strangers? Do you want an honest answer, because you might not like it. Yes, sirens make me jump. Loud cars make me jump. I don't crawl under the bed, but my heart pounds. I don't own a gun, but if I hear a noise, I check it out. I was taught to be afraid, which is a bad thing. My father moved here to St. Louis from a country town where you threw your front door open and had no fear of your neighbors or anything else. He was so paranoid upon moving here he promptly instilled fear in his children based on his own fear. He didn't mean to, and I know that now, but I've fought against it for years, only making little breakthroughs and thinking I've won, to have something else new take me back two steps. Fear is a good thing, it keeps us alive. Irrational fear invoked by strange events needs to be analysed and statistically evaluated as rational or hysteria. Your chances of a plane landing on your house is much greaater by pilots who suffer a heart attack in a small plane than terrorists aiming at you. So please explain why your irrational fear of terrorists require me to kiss some govt flunkies ass to get where I am going. Not picking on you, just trying to have you think unintended consequences. Fear is a good thing if it is in moderation, and not in the form of panic. I agree there. I also know my fear of a plane crashing into my house was irrational. I stated that. I also dealt with my counselor about it in great detail. Unfortunately, it was a major thing, 9/11 and it invoked many irrational fears in many people, not just me. I don't require you to do anything, I simply said the extra security measures give me some degree of comfort. I know you aren't picking on me, I know you want me to think about it. But I have. I thought about planes, planes crashing, air safety, 9/11 for months and months before I was finally able to get past it and live normally. Maybe I have too much trust in the people who are there to protect us, but I'd rather trust them than fear them, if that makes any sense. I deal with my fears, every day, of many things. And I've come a long way, really, in some of them. But the trauma of 9/11 still remains one of the worst things I've encountered, and seen and lived through, and I suspect it always will, unless I live to see something inherently worse. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #110,959 by jb4 7/22/03 5:52:01 PM Reply	You have an interesting sense of history All I know is that we haven't had another hijacking, or another plane flown into a major US building since 9/11/01, and that tells me they must be doing something right. Hoo-fuckin-ray, no hijacking in about one-and-a-half-years in the US. Of course, we didn't have a hijacking in the US for at least that long in the US before 11Sep01 (I don't have the exact numbers, but I'm sure the collective memory of the LRPD can come up with the exact facts with several links to back it up...its a wonderful toy!). So what's yer point? That sheep prevent hijackings? jb4 The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not. Candyce Burns (my wife)
Post #111,013 by Nightowl 7/22/03 10:26:12 PM Reply	Re: You have an interesting sense of history Hoo-fuckin-ray, no hijacking in about one-and-a-half-years in the US. Of course, we didn't have a hijacking in the US for at least that long in the US before 11Sep01 (I don't have the exact numbers, but I'm sure the collective memory of the LRPD can come up with the exact facts with several links to back it up...its a wonderful toy!). So what's yer point? That sheep prevent hijackings? No, my point is, I guess that I have seen a result. But based on my actual use of the airline industry, I probably have no true basis for deciding anything about it. Bottom line is I don't have the delays and annoyances, because I do not fly. Perhaps if I did fly, I would feel differently. And I don't know what you mean by sheep, to be honest. But I also believe that any level of comfort that can be gained by the concept of "Someone doing something about the situation" is also based on the feelings of the person getting the comfort. In my case, I had traumatic nightmares for months after 9/11, afraid that a plane would crash into my house. I know that was an "unreasonable" fear, but nonetheless, that is what 9/11 caused me to deal with. It took me MONTHS before I could stop listening for planes, stop watching for planes, and finally sleep comfortably. And a lot of that comfort was dervived from the measures the airlines and Homeland Security took to protect us. Maybe it was like a placebo or something, really didn't do anything in particular, but caused me the ability to relax and believe I was safe, regardless. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,025 by Ashton 7/22/03 11:05:05 PM Reply	Out of the mouths of - Here you have succinctly summed-up the vast majority of in-place placebos constructed by this Admin: Maybe it was like a placebo or something, really didn't do anything in particular, but caused me the ability to relax and believe I was safe An almost brilliant comment, if I do say so - if you indeed understand the implications of what you said. And were you to take the time and attention to examine the PATRIOT Act and a few thousand other words that have entered our vocabulary since 9/11, why then.. just possibly you might find somewhere an association with the word sheep. Maybe not. Or to put it more simply, safety? [whatever a 'life' of perfect safety might be, in your ken] VS the appearance-of safety. More would be telling. Ashton
Post #111,031 by Nightowl 7/22/03 11:18:30 PM Reply	Re: Out of the mouths of - Here you have succinctly summed-up the vast majority of in-place placebos constructed by this Admin: Maybe it was like a placebo or something, really didn't do anything in particular, but caused me the ability to relax and believe I was safe An almost brilliant comment, if I do say so - if you indeed understand the implications of what you said. And were you to take the time and attention to examine the PATRIOT Act and a few thousand other words that have entered our vocabulary since 9/11, why then.. just possibly you might find somewhere an association with the word sheep. Maybe not. Okay. I know what you mean now. You mean do I follow orders or obey the laws, and the answer is basically, yes. I'm not a person who makes waves often, although I do defend my position when I feel it is being violated or attacked. I figure the government must know at least better than I, what should be done, when I can't even barely comprehend what all is going on politically. So yes, in that sense, I'm a sheep and hey, sheep live long happy lives, only giving their wool on occasion, where wolves are hunted down and shot. ;) Or to put it more simply, safety? [whatever a 'life' of perfect safety might be, in your ken] VS the appearance-of safety. More would be telling. Okay, you're saying I should not let the appearance of saftey lull me into a false sense of security, and believe me, I don't completely do that. In fact, I am still very nervous at times regarding the events of 9/11. But it still gave me some measure of comfort to know something was being done, just like my security alarm system gives me some measure of comfort that I'm safe in my own house. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,035 by Ashton 7/22/03 11:31:46 PM Reply	Two words re safe sheep____lamb chops
Post #111,045 by Nightowl 7/23/03 12:22:29 AM Reply	Re: Two words re safe sheep____lamb chops Not always. Some are bred purely for their wool. :) Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,054 by rcareaga 7/23/03 12:39:43 AM Reply	Dear God... Please tell me you don't vote. That would be too depressing to contemplate. Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #111,057 by Nightowl 7/23/03 12:45:00 AM Reply	Re: Dear God... Please tell me you don't vote. That would be too depressing to contemplate. Didn't you read my post to Ashton about that very topic? :) I rarely vote. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,062 by rcareaga 7/23/03 12:51:49 AM Reply	Re: Dear God... I am gratified, madame, beyond my power to express this. Believe me to be very, very cordially yours, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #111,061 by Nightowl 7/23/03 12:50:54 AM Reply	Re: Dear God... And furthermore, sir, why does my one single vote matter so much? My father used to tell me that all the time. I HAD TO VOTE, it was IMPERATIVE. Well, I don't get it. Millions of people vote, and no election I've ever seen that mattered was won by one ballot. So don't worry about my vote or non-vote. Worry about the millions or thousands or whatever number of people there are that will vote the way you worry about. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,065 by rcareaga 7/23/03 1:01:58 AM Reply	nightowl wonders "why does my one single vote matter so much?" Your one single vote matters hardly at all. The votes of millions of equally ill-informed enfranchised residents of this allegedly great land matter a great deal. I don't wish to be unkind, but your social and political observations as I have observed them to date strike me as appallingly naïve, even childlike. I can respect those political adversaries whose arguments, even when I violently disagree with them, give some evidence of rational calculations behind them. Your reasonings, my dear nightowl, would not do credit to a twelve year-old. I do applaud, however, your disinclination to vote. cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #111,066 by Nightowl 7/23/03 1:10:23 AM Reply	Re: nightowl wonders I don't wish to be unkind, but your social and political observations as I have observed them to date strike me as appallingly naive, even childlike. I can respect those political adversaries whose arguments, even when I violently disagree with them, give some evidence of rational calculations behind them. Your reasonings, my dear nightowl, would not do credit to a twelve year-old. I do applaud, however, your disinclination to vote. Ok, granted on the political end. I was just never interested in politics, and still am not, and it's very difficult for me to understand. So yes, I'm sure I have about a grade school level of comprehension for that. As for my social observations, I'm not sure what you mean by that one. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,182 by jb4 7/23/03 6:57:11 PM Reply	NO... what I meant was... ...that Sheep are willing to be led (actually, "herded" is the operative term) to whatever fate, Macheavelian [sic] or otherwise, that their "leaders" (read: shepherds) lead them into, and will quitely accept their fate without so much as a whimper (except perhaps, at the very end....). Sheep don't question whether they are being duped, or led down the primrose path, because they feel "safe" when they are being herded somewhere. Airport "security", as it is being practiced today, is so much handwaving. It has been repeatedly shown to be wastetime, ineffective window-dressing that does nothing to address the real problem of securing the airways against those evil-doers would would use said airways to do evil. Yet you, and so many others, are willing -- indeed eager -- to allow this inneffective handwaving exercise in the name of "heightend security" because you "feel so much safer" now that the Government "is doing something about security". Sheep! Get it now? jb4 The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not. Candyce Burns (my wife)
Post #111,189 by Nightowl 7/23/03 8:57:07 PM 7/23/03 8:58:18 PM Reply	Re: NO... what I meant was... ...that Sheep are willing to be led (actually, "herded" is the operative term) to whatever fate, Macheavelian [sic] or otherwise, that their "leaders" (read: shepherds) lead them into, and will quitely accept their fate without so much as a whimper (except perhaps, at the very end....). Sheep don't question whether they are being duped, or led down the primrose path, because they feel "safe" when they are being herded somewhere. Well then I am most definitely NOT a sheep. If that was the case, I would still be employed today at a job I loved, rather than be a victim of having refused to do something I was told which was immoral and against the policy, and having lost a fight against a major university which ultimately cost me my job, my confidence in employment, and my self-confidence, some of the latter, which i have finally reacquired. Airport "security", as it is being practiced today, is so much handwaving. It has been repeatedly shown to be wastetime, ineffective window-dressing that does nothing to address the real problem of securing the airways against those evil-doers would would use said airways to do evil. Yet you, and so many others, are willing -- indeed eager -- to allow this inneffective handwaving exercise in the name of "heightend security" because you "feel so much safer" now that the Government "is doing something about security". I think the only reason I allow it is I have no say on it, am not part of it, do not fly and therefore, never considered it on any serious level. Make sense? I didn't say I did anything to cause it to be, only that knowing it happens gave me a level of comfort. There is a difference in being actively involved in causing something to happen, and simply gaining something from it happening. Get it now? Yes, but I still do not consider myself a sheep, based on your first paragraphs here, because I always question anything that directly affects me if I think it's wrong. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl Edited by Nightowl July 23, 2003, 08:58:18 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #111,380 by boxley 7/24/03 11:43:05 PM Reply	AHAH! an almost tenured professor suspected education when I saw that loverly car you drive. thanx, bill questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #111,389 by Nightowl 7/25/03 12:11:56 AM Reply	Re: AHAH! an almost tenured professor suspected education when I saw that loverly car you drive. Thanks Box. I do adore my car. :) But I was not a professor, was just on my way to becoming a History major... But I do have a 2 year degree in Communications, Creative Writing. So yes, I'd say I'm fairly educated... just never completed the 4 year thing and may not, don't know. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,226 by hnick 7/24/03 7:39:37 AM Reply	Retirement package still includes mint jelly...
Post #111,311 by jb4 7/24/03 4:52:49 PM Reply	chuckle jb4 The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not. Candyce Burns (my wife)
Post #111,320 by Ashton 7/24/03 5:17:38 PM Reply	Oh You Kid..!______(speak goatish?) 23 Skiddoo
Post #111,499 by tuberculosis 7/25/03 5:35:15 PM 8/21/07 6:03:03 AM Reply	What I know All I know is that we haven't had another hijacking, or another plane flown into a major US building since 9/11/01, and that tells me they must be doing something right. We know more than that. For instance, we know that the technique used to hijack the airplanes no longer works once people have expanded their sphere of possible outcomes. In fact, that technique failed as soon as the passengers on the 4th plane learned about one of the other planes from a cell phone call. They acted to foil the terrorists (at the cost of their own lives). If they had known a little earlier, I doubt the terrorists would have gained access to the cockpit and the plane would likely have landed safely. That's what we know. Prior to the first plane hitting a building - this sort of action was inconceivable to the average civilian. This is no longer true and it will never be true again. The other thing I know is I have a right to personal grooming tools and I'm fed up with buying new ones everytime I get on a plane. Smalltalk is dangerous. It is a drug. My advice to you would be don't try it; it could ruin your life. Once you take the time to learn it (to REALLY learn it) you will see that there is nothing out there (yet) to touch it. Of course, like all drugs, how dangerous it is depends on your character. It may be that once you've got to this stage you'll find it difficult (if not impossible) to "go back" to other languages and, if you are forced to, you might become an embittered character constantly muttering ascerbic comments under your breath. Who knows, you may even have to quit the software industry altogether because nothing else lives up to your new expectations. --AndyBower Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 06:03:03 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #110,958 by jb4 7/22/03 5:40:48 PM Reply	Or, perhaps, one less time And what's worse really, is if the man had simply removed the button when asked, he would have been fine. Just like we hand over our tweezers and nail clippers and everything else. But he had to make a stink over it, which is why there is even a problem in the first place. Can you say, "Baaaaah!"? I knew you could.... jb4 The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not. Candyce Burns (my wife)
Post #110,966 by Ashton 7/22/03 6:19:12 PM Reply	Please.. just don't register to vote, OK? I mean.. there's so much More Interesting stuff for you to do, so many expectations to meet and - now you're safe from attack too: they are getting ALL of the tweezers and nailclippers - virtually 100.0%. And soon the cattle-prods will speed up even Your infrequent airport trip, to pick up a woolly biped traveller (if he isn't detoured to Guantanamo.. because he looks funny). Safety.. don't abandon the Republic for anything Less! (Remember too: You must Love Them; it is not enough to just Obey Them\ufffd) So now, nothing can go wrong.. go wrong.. go Thanks, Ashton PS - do you read things like books? Older than '02, say? You might enjoy the tale of one Winston Smith - in a today little-known book by a minor author. It's called 1984 - and yes, you're right: we're long past that date. So it's probably obsolescent already. Just a thought. It's a pretty long book though, so - -
Post #111,015 by Nightowl 7/22/03 10:39:50 PM Reply	Re: Please.. just don't register to vote, OK? I mean.. there's so much More Interesting stuff for you to do, so many expectations to meet and - now you're safe from attack too: they are getting ALL of the tweezers and nailclippers - virtually 100.0%. And soon the cattle-prods will speed up even Your infrequent airport trip, to pick up a woolly biped traveller (if he isn't detoured to Guantanamo.. because he looks funny). Well first of all, I am registered to vote, but I rarely do, because I can't comprehend the political parties' platforms most of the time. I have voted in a couple Presidential elections, but that's the most voting I tend to do. I believe if I vote when I don't know what I'm doing, I'm just doing worse than not voting. PS - do you read things like books? Older than '02, say? You might enjoy the tale of one Winston Smith - in a today little-known book by a minor author. It's called 1984 - and yes, you're right: we're long past that date. So it's probably obsolescent already. Just a thought. It's a pretty long book though, so - - I read all the time, all kinds of books. I read 1984 years and years ago in High School, and I didn't like it. I'm not big on anything futuristic where technology rules. Government monitoring people using extreme technology is included in that. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,042 by inthane-chan 7/23/03 12:04:36 AM Reply	Point == missed. I read 1984 years and years ago in High School, and I didn't like it. I'm not big on anything futuristic where technology rules. There's a line in 1984... (Paraphrased) "I'm not sure it's 1984. In fact, I have no idea when it is." Orwell was writing about real political events occuring in 1948. The story wasn't about the technology - it was about a world where the government dominated every aspect of our lives. Something, that thanks to the vast majority of sheeple out there willing to roll over and ignore George Orwell's warning to us. Government monitoring people using extreme technology is included in that. Then by your inaction, you are aiding to damn the rest of us who seek the pursuit of freedom, instead of slavery. You have forsaken your potential as a human being. And though you hold the keys to ruin of everything I see/With every prison blown to dust, my enemies walk free/Though all the kingdoms turn to sand and fall into the sea/ I'm mad about you I'm mad about you
Post #111,046 by Nightowl 7/23/03 12:24:15 AM Reply	Re: Point == missed. Then by your inaction, you are aiding to damn the rest of us who seek the pursuit of freedom, instead of slavery. You have forsaken your potential as a human being. Huh? Just because I prefer not to read books or see movies where technology rules? Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,075 by Ashton 7/23/03 2:43:17 AM Reply	Technology? The stone axe is 'technology'. We are tool-making apes: the %-difference between a Republicrat and a chimpanzee is IIRC <0.1% in the DNA coding (and lots of that contains junk-nodes, so the differences might be smaller yet). What we do is 'make things' -- most often without much concern for the "unintended consequences". Technology is just a fancy name for a Much Larger Way of making useful/not-so-useful/destructive things, none of which much change the meat-aspect at all: we're herd animals and pack animals.. with always a small assortment of odd ones who refuse to join any organization as would Take.. people like them. If you had imagined that 1984 had anything much to do with technology (except as theatre decoration), then it's not even a question: you missed it. All of it. I will grant that you are more aware of that which you don't know - than many, and I offer Brownie points for your forthrightness. I haven't walked in your moccasins or experienced the early conditioning of your parents, so I can't guess whether your current disinterest in what-you-call politics is inborn - or? a result of rather too-few hours of being read to and possibly.. having been ensconced in front of a Tee Vee for many hours - this in lieu of sincere adult Attention and efforts to wake you up, and keep you awake. But there's always hope. 'Politics' is supposed to be about ~ every aspect of the "social contract" we are born into, yet - Can Change - if, and when 'we' (enough of 'us') see a need to. To be not-interested in "how you live" / the rules and their effects - as determine all options available to you: is to freely surrender your voice along with the chances which you might have helped create for yourself and for others. Those books, which you have also found to be of little interest, are the means by which we are able to evade mistakes - for learning just how many and what kind were already made - it's a great time and energy saver, you see? And it's never too late to begin catching up. And since this IS America, the land of Disneyland Dreams Tee Vee and large noise-background all the time: it wouldn't be long before you surpassed the experience of many of your contemporaries. So.. "catching up" really isn't all that hard. There are many libraries (for a while yet) and librarians are a special breed: they love to answer sincere queries and point people to decent short-cuts to catching up - whatever the topic. Librarians are among the more underappreciated people around, especially in this now post-literate era. Still and all - no one can supply Interest. That comes from inside or it doesn't. There are no 'shoulds' about that, though. Simply, those who do have Interests find the perpetually disinterested to be - boring at best. This may be why groups form around Interests. And the others go to chat rooms to say everything about nothing. A member of one group will not be very comfortable in the other, but people are generally more than happy whenever a person "wants to change groups?" - it implies that something is Alive there. The snide remarks cease, under such circumstances :-) Lastly, as to 'books' - [link\|http://www.classicnote.com/ClassicNotes/Titles/fahrenheit/\| Fahrenheit 451] (the kindling temperature of newsprint) may give you an idea of the appreciation for books in a situation which -- seems eerily close-to where we seem to be heading. It's available in a superb movie or best of all: in print by the author. It's a rollicking good tale, in any case - but as always: you have to supply its 'meaning'. Bon appetit, Ashton who once.. had read neither 1984 nor Fahrenheit 451. Too.
Post #111,116 by Nightowl 7/23/03 10:49:00 AM Reply	Re: Technology? The stone axe is 'technology'. ... Technology is just a fancy name for a Much Larger Way of making useful/not-so-useful/ destructive things, none of which much change the meat-aspect at all: Perhaps I should have clarified. Computer technology. Yes, I know I'm typing on a computer right now, but honestly, there was a time when I was terrified of computers, I believed they were capable of taking me over and running my life and everyone else's just by sitting there. Now I'm smarter, but things like computer controlled houses still give me the heebie jeebies. I was shown what computers could do, i.e. make words appear on a screen and then come out on paper, and that is what drew me to them finally, and allowed me to trust them some, the desire to put words on screen and paper. If you had imagined that 1984 had anything much to do with technology (except as theatre decoration), then it's not even a question: you missed it. All of it. Oh well, I read it years ago, and I was never big on sci fi futuristic stuff, i.e. the end of the world, nuclear destruction, or farming the moon. I like some Sci Fi stuff but the hard core sci fi just bored and confused me, as a rule, with a few notable exceptions like The Forever War, The War Of The Worlds, etc. I will grant that you are more aware of that which you don't know - than many, and I offer Brownie points for your forthrightness. I haven't walked in your moccasins or experienced the early conditioning of your parents, so I can't guess whether your current disinterest in what-you-call politics is inborn - or? a result of rather too-few hours of being read to and possibly.. having been ensconced in front of a Tee Vee for many hours - this in lieu of sincere adult Attention and efforts to wake you up, and keep you awake. I'll have you know I read/and still do, alot more than you give me credit for. I was addicted to TV once as a child and decided it was a bad thing. I weaned myself away from hours and hours of TV one step at a time, till I cut down an entire day to night viewing to about 10 programs. Now I currently watch about 5 types of TV, including many daily newscasts because I'm very interested in news. I watch one Soap Opera, and it is the #1 on the list, and I watch a couple drama shows, no sitcoms, no silly reality shows, and no talk shows other than Dr. Phil and occasionally David Letterman. I am a history buff, and politics always intertwine with History, but honestly it gets too jumbled for me to completely ever understand, and I simply got tired of it and focused on the military and other actions regarding History, rather than most of the political stuff. I have tried to understand politics, found it more frustrating than it's worth, and still have trouble remembering what is left and right wing, and etc. But there's always hope. 'Politics' is supposed to be about ~ every aspect of the "social contract" we are born into, yet - Can Change - if, and when 'we' (enough of 'us') see a need to. To be not-interested in "how you live" / the rules and their effects - as determine all options available to you: is to freely surrender your voice along with the chances which you might have helped create for yourself and for others. I realize that by not voting, I don't have a right to complain if I don't like the circumstances. So, I don't complain, I cope. Honestly, even when I DO vote and it doesn't go the way I would like, I still don't complain. I make the best of it. Those books, which you have also found to be of little interest, are the means by which we are able to evade mistakes - for learning just how many and what kind were already made - it's a great time and energy saver, you see? And it's never too late to begin catching up. And since this IS America, the land of Disneyland Dreams Tee Vee and large noise-background all the time: it wouldn't be long before you surpassed the experience of many of your contemporaries. So.. "catching up" really isn't all that hard. There are many libraries (for a while yet) and librarians are a special breed: they love to answer sincere queries and point people to decent short-cuts to catching up - whatever the topic. Librarians are among the more underappreciated people around, especially in this now post-literate era. I am in love with books. I probably have more books in my house than most people, probably akin to a small library, and I honestly would appreciate you not making assumptions about whether I read or not. I read almost everything, all the time, including my daily newspapers, and I appreciate the written word over any other media, including the computer. I wanted to be a librarian once, but someone made sure that could never happen without a great deal of repair so I lost some of my respect for the genre. But I know librarians answer questions, and I also am very good at seeking answers on the internet, through what I call "fishing" However, I have to know what I'm seeking answers to, and some of the things said in here aren't clear enough to look up, so I ask John and he assists me in paraphrasing much of it. Still and all - no one can supply Interest. That comes from inside or it doesn't. There are no 'shoulds' about that, though. Simply, those who do have Interests find the perpetually disinterested to be - boring at best. This may be why groups form around Interests. And the others go to chat rooms to say everything about nothing. Like Math, which I took, took again, took a third time and still cannot master without doing each problem 5 times and taking the answer I get the most times, I choose not to deal with most political issues, because of the level of frustration it causes me. It's not a matter of just interest, it's a matter of frustration, and having no serious need to understand it since I do not vote about every little issue in my government or community, and because even if you know what the politicians are saying, you never know if they are telling the truth, so why bother. So If I'm boring because I don't care much for politics, I am sorry, I don't usually get into any sort of conversation about this but I felt I had something to contribute, and I did. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,187 by Ashton 7/23/03 8:02:07 PM Reply	Well, that clears it up. You might be surprised to hear - I bought my Osborne1, the first practical toy computer - for exactly the same purpose: words. A Wang\ufffd 'wordprocessor' {ugly Idea, That} was a bloated, overpriced inaccessible thing - and soon.. Wang died. (I despise spreadsheets - to me they epitomize the reduction of All Life to the simplistic, juvenile mindset of a bottom line) and further symbolize the diseducation of the basketweaving CPA/Econ courses. (A radical Capitalist idea of a pretend- Ed-ja-Kay'-shun) Many folks re-read books, periodically. Shakespeare is the obv. example - since, as we grow, occasionally we even grow Up. Since you're older now, possibly another read of both mentioned books.. might permit you to skip the mantra, sciencefiction-Idon'tlike Thosethings-SoIwon'tlikeThis and read for comprehension of the Society Matters.. maybe along with a quick reread of the Constitution of the US and especially, The Bill of Rights. For perspective: Then (a few years ago, even) and Now. (Those last two are pretty brief.) If none of it still makes sense, turns on any Lights then? Well, you tried. But as always: your call. Oh: indeed, people lie all the time! especially to themselves (practice makes perfect). Your task is to look for the symptoms and each day get better at that - or just.. never mind. Ashton
Post #111,193 by Nightowl 7/23/03 9:07:48 PM Reply	Re: Well, that clears it up. You might be surprised to hear - I bought my Osborne1, the first practical toy computer - for exactly the same purpose: words. A Wang? 'wordprocessor' {ugly Idea, That} was a bloated, overpriced inaccessible thing - and soon.. Wang died. Kewl! I started with an Apple IIE, myself and I still have it and it still works. :) (I despise spreadsheets - to me they epitomize the reduction of All Life to the simplistic, juvenile mindset of a bottom line) and further symbolize the diseducation of the basketweaving CPA/Econ courses. (A radical Capitalist idea of a pretend- Ed-ja-Kay'-shun) I only like Spreadsheets because I can make them alphabetize and organize. I haven't yet figured out Access to the point where I can manipulate it like I would like, but I have learned a lot more about tables in Word that work similar to the spreadsheets in regards to columns and rows. Many folks re-read books, periodically. Shakespeare is the obv. example - since, as we grow, occasionally we even grow Up. Since you're older now, possibly another read of both mentioned books.. might permit you to skip the mantra, sciencefiction-Idon'tlike Thosethings-SoIwon'tlikeThis I suppose I can consider it, but I'll be honest. I have probably over 100 books waiting to be read. I have books about historical things like ship wrecks, and the Oklahoma Bombing, and 9/11 to read, books about jobs and coping with mean bosses and dealing with people on the job to read, a number of Star Wars books to read, several self-help books to read, including the recent ones about Migraines, a book I'm still reading and dealing with with my counselor about Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, and many many more books from movies, or about life events, or just funny in general. I'm also still reading "The Forever Peace" with my husband out loud, which is the sequel to the "Forever War." Not trying to be a smart aleck, but I have a lot to read someday, and I am still acquiring more all the time. That doesn't even touch the magazines and other miscellaneous things I get or am given to read. I probably have about 12 books started right now, as I read them in various places and at various times. I'll be honest though, one of the reasons I stopped reading hard core Sci Fi was it gave me nightmares. And that's also one of the reasons I've hesitated to read some of the historical things, and only read them during the daytime, so I don't go to bed with say, the World Trade Disaster on my mind. and read for comprehension of the Society Matters.. maybe along with a quick reread of the Constitution of the US and especially, The Bill of Rights. For perspective: Then (a few years ago, even) and Now. (Those last two are pretty brief.) I believe I reread the constitution just last year when John and I looked something up, but I can't swear it. If none of it still makes sense, turns on any Lights then? Well, you tried. But as always: your call. Yep, and my main goal this next 6 months is to try and get back in the employment game... although I must admit, I'm still very hesitant and very scared. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" Comment by Nightowl
Post #111,051 by pwhysall 7/23/03 12:33:15 AM Reply	Re: One more time. I live in the UK. Unlike the Americans present (specifically YOU), I've spent my entire life in a country that's been in a state of low-level civil war (any NORAID contributors present? Just want to say, "Gee, thanks, y'all"). It's only in the past few years that the IRA have stopped blowing things up. I'll emphasise one point for you. YOU ARE NOT UNDER TERRORIST THREAT. The horrifying events of September 11, 2001, were a one-off; never to be repeated. It is to your eternal shame that you as a nation have allowed the Bush/Rumsfeld administration to use this anomolous event to start gutting the Constitution wholesale in order that they cling to power. Many Americans have pointed out that the UK doesn't have a written constitution (it does, it's just not in one document) and that we're poorer for it. Until the current administration started turning the USA into a one-party pigopolarchy, I'd have agreed. When security takes nail-clippers and tweezers from you at the airport, they're not safeguarding you; they're violating your freedom. Next, they'll take some other item, and another, and another. Then you won't be able to take any hand-luggage at all. Then, you'll have to seek approval for your journey. Then you won't be able to travel at all. Yes, this is hyperbolic. I'm being dramatic to make a point, which is this: America is becoming that which she despises. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #111,059 by rcareaga 7/23/03 12:47:19 AM Reply	Right. On. pwhysall observes: America is becoming that which she despises. Has. Become. cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #111,076 by Ashton 7/23/03 3:04:51 AM Reply	Thanks, Peter. It must be transparent - looking from outside the intentionally-induced madness of this unelected rehime. GPL'd? I'd like to quote it (exactly). But usual care re any zIWE linking. Ashton
Post #111,600 by mhuber 7/26/03 9:25:18 PM Reply	Dead fish get through the line faster ---- Sometime you the windshield, sometime you the bug, sometime you the driver and you turn on the windshield washer and keep going.

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