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New Must we...?
Sorry, sweeping statements must be answered at least once, if only to stop sweeping statements. If there's one thing I've been trying to get through y'all's thick skulls in the last, what, ten years? it's that "Christian" thought is not homogeneous. Stop listening to the fundamentalists, who wouldn't know context if it bit them on the ass.

According to the Godites and the Christians, God is omnipotent and omnipresent, thus totally responsible for all acts including those of "that other guy". It follows that all your or anyone else's inflictions are inflicted by God.


According to some Christians, perhaps, but I challenge them to show me the words "omnipotent" or "omnipresent" (chapter and verse). Some of us are quite happy with a God who gives up some of his power in order to allow free will. Didn't you see Bruce Almighty? :P

Any denial of this by God would imply He is not omnipotent and omnipresent, demonstrating that He is not God. Any denial of this by anyone other than God would be a claim God is not God, and that would be blasphemy.


What a steaming pile. This is like saying, "if you don't come to my party, you're not my friend." It may demonstrate He doesn't fit a popular (Greek) conception of God, but nothing more.

Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
New Re: Must we...?
Some of us are quite happy with a God who gives up some of his power in order to allow free will.

This is flat wrong - on two levels.

One: Yes, God is by definition omnipotent, because he IS. I AM THAT I AM.

A partially potent God is just another celebrity.

Two: Free will is another statement for the necessity of choice when lack of omnipotence prevents knowing what to do. So, it is compatible with an omnipotent God, who does not require "free" will, nor any "will" at all. We supply the "will".
-drl
New Nice try.
At least you proved my central argument: that "Christian" thought is diverse.

One: I don't accept your "definition". Saying "I define X to mean..." is not a proof; it's an axiom/presupposition, one which I don't share, as I mentioned. My "definition" of God is "the being described in the Old and New Testaments as the creator of the world." Pre-existence does not prove/require omnipotence. Being very, very powerful is not the same thing as omnipotence. And, to cap it all off, an omnipotent being who limits the exercise of its power is no longer an omnipotent being in the classic sense. So you have to decide whether "omnipotent" in any given sentence means:

1. All-powerful, no restraint,
2. All-powerful, some restraint, or
3. Less than all-powerful because of the restraint.

I usually choose 3, but that's just because most Westerners believe that Power isn't Power unless it's exercised; i.e. - they don't admit option 2.

Two: What was two again? Oh, yes. You're right, under option 2 above. But I read Grygus as invoking option 1, and reacted with 3.

And it's not lack of omnipotence that prevents knowing what to do; it's lack of omniscience. I should have made that distinction in my last post. In the OT and NT, I see a God who has limited himself by:

a) Creating a reasonably ordered universe.
b) Working in Time.
c) Giving Man Free Will. (love the all caps; gotta keep this Platonic ;)
d) Making covenants which He keeps.

Items (b) and (c) together have suggested to me for a while now that God has chosen to not see the future. One of these days I'm going to attempt to prove that, Biblically. You'll notice as a starting point that God's pronouncements about the future in the OT rarely (never? still looking) involve what shall come to pass passively; they are always pronouncements about what God will actively do in the future. Big difference. Yes, I know, the Book of Revelations is problematic--but it was a vision. Film at 11.

Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
New Hmm. A couple of passages.
In the OT and NT, I see a God who has limited himself by:

a) Creating a reasonably ordered universe.
b) Working in Time.
c) Giving Man Free Will. (love the all caps; gotta keep this Platonic ;)
d) Making covenants which He keeps.

Items (b) and (c) together have suggested to me for a while now that God has chosen to not see the future. One of these days I'm going to attempt to prove that, Biblically.


I agree that an all-powerful being wouldn't have to exert its power. But there are some logical conundrums that can arise (like the 'big rock' thing). But I think evidence can be found that God is supposed to be all-powerful as we understand the term in our gut.

Consider, e.g., [link|http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOB+37&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on|Job 37]:

14 "Listen to this, Job;
stop and consider God's wonders.
15 Do you know how God controls the clouds
and makes his lightning flash?
16 Do you know how the clouds hang poised,
those wonders of him who is perfect in knowledge?
17 You who swelter in your clothes
when the land lies hushed under the south wind,
18 can you join him in spreading out the skies,
hard as a mirror of cast bronze?

19 "Tell us what we should say to him;
we cannot draw up our case because of our darkness.
20 Should he be told that I want to speak?
Would any man ask to be swallowed up?
21 Now no one can look at the sun,
bright as it is in the skies
after the wind has swept them clean.
22 Out of the north he comes in golden splendor;
God comes in awesome majesty.
23 The Almighty is beyond our reach and exalted in power;
in his justice and great righteousness, he does not oppress.
24 Therefore, men revere him,
for does he not have regard for all the wise in heart?"


Emphasis added.

Translations are always problematic, but this passage from Job seems to clearly indicate that God is supposed to be all-powerful.

I don't think you'll succeed in proving God has chosen not to see the future.

E.g. [link|http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ISA+34&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on|Isaiah 34]

1 Come near, you nations, and listen;
pay attention, you peoples!
Let the earth hear, and all that is in it,
the world, and all that comes out of it!
2 The LORD is angry with all nations;
his wrath is upon all their armies.
He will totally destroy [1] them,
he will give them over to slaughter.
3 Their slain will be thrown out,
their dead bodies will send up a stench;
the mountains will be soaked with their blood.
4 All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved
and the sky rolled up like a scroll;
all the starry host will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

5 My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
see, it descends in judgment on Edom,
the people I have totally destroyed.
6 The sword of the LORD is bathed in blood,
it is covered with fat-
the blood of lambs and goats,
fat from the kidneys of rams.
For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah
and a great slaughter in Edom.
7 And the wild oxen will fall with them,
the bull calves and the great bulls.
Their land will be drenched with blood,
and the dust will be soaked with fat.

8 For the LORD has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion's cause.
9 Edom's streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night and day;
its smoke will rise forever.

From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.

[...]


Emphasis added.

There are other passages like this, like Luke 21:25-32, that has Jesus telling what's going to happen.

I'm no Bible scholar, but I think you'll have to stretch a bit to say that there isn't evidence that the God of the Bible choses not to know the future. And of course there's the other side of the problem - Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden with God not knowing what's up, etc.

No disrespect intended. :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New Always a "yes, but" :)
Thanks for the research! My answers:

The Job passage are the words of a man, Elihu, who isn't even called a "prophet". Same issue I have with using the Psalms as a theological reference: there's no authority given to the speaker. Lots of people say lots of things in the Bible; there's really no reason to trust Elihu's word over Ross', from that perspective. Believe me, there are some actors in the Bible who, although favored by God, are not good models in all their speech and actions (take Jacob, for example).

The Isaiah passage illustrates perfectly my earlier point: the future being discussed is future acts to be committed by the Lord. Read the passage again (esp the bold bits) with that tenor in mind and it becomes perfectly readable: the "smoke will rise forever" because of the actions of the Lord, not some third party.

The current problematic passages for me are more along the lines of, "Babylon will do such and such," or more specifically, "Israel will be taken into captivity." For example:
Genesis 15:13
Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. (14) But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. (15) You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a good old age. (16) In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure."

The "enslaved...four hundred years" bit requires either 1) true omniscient foreknowledge, 2) a decision on God's part to take over human activity (i.e. God is the one willing the slavery), or 3) omniscient "present" knowledge, i.e. that God knew what should probably happen based on present events and the hearts and minds of the Egyptians. It's an epistemological quandary, but from my point-of-view no more "risky" than saying God "just knew". I feel my theory both supports topics already resolved under the omniscient view, AND opens up explanation for some of the "unresolved issues" with omniscience. One of my favorites of which is Jeremiah 3:6,7
"Then the LORD said to me in the days of Josiah the king, "Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there. (7) I thought, 'After she has done all these things she will return to Me'; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it."

This is God speaking for Himself, and He says "I thought one thing, but something else happened." How can an omniscient God say this with a straight face?

Still pondering...

Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
New Sorry, I've got to.
A partially potent God is just another celebrity.

Understanding that no one can tell anyone about God, I would respectfully submit that a "partially potent God" is a bad reading. My God is an experimenter, sort of a keenly interested observer. To see what I mean, consider a coin toss (and for simplicity, throw out the miniscule probablity that during a fair coin flip the coin lands on its edge). We toss a coin and know with certainty that the coin will rest either heads up or tails up. But we cannot know, with certainty, which will be the case on any given coin toss. I don't see that this limits our omniscience. We do, in fact, know all the possible outcomes of the experiment. We can even predict with reasonable certainty the outcome of a large number of these experiments. The fact that we cannot predict the outcome of a single coin flip, in my view, doesn't diminish our "power".

Indeed, if one accepts God as a creator of the Universe, it would be a trifling thing if in such a Universe were created in which there was no possibility of the outcome of any event being unknown before it occured. That would be easy given omnipotence and omnipresence. It would, in short, not be a miracle to construct such a Universe. But now consider an omnipotent and omnipresent God who manages to create an entire Universe modeled on my coin toss example, where all possible outcomes are know, but in any given light cone, the specific outcome cannot be predicted. Keep in mind that the creator of the experiment is omnipotent and omnipresent. Imho, that is a miraculous construction.

Of course, YMMV and none of this has any meaning to you. ;-)
bcnu,
Mikem

The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.

- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
New Well said; hadn't thought about that before.

Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
New here's a take from about 45 years ago
COMP. RELIGION

It all begins with fear of mana
Next there comes the love of tribe.
Native dances, totems, ani-
Mism and magicians thrive.

Culture grows more complicated
Spirits, chiefs in funny hats,
And suchlike spooks are sublimated
Into gods and Ziggurats

Polyarmed and polyheaded
Gods proliferate until
Puristic-minded sages edit
Their welter into one sweet Will.

This worshipped One grows so enlightened
Vast and high He, in a blur,
Explodes, and men are left as frightened
Of mana as they ever were.

--John Updike


cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New Omnipotent with a twisted sense of humor
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

As the Poets have mournfully sung.
Death takes the innocent young,
The rolling in money,
the screamingly funny,
And those who are very well hung.
W.H. Auden
New An interesting synchronicity with your sig.
Yeah, yeah.. your guys get/earn! the collective dis - maybe 'cause Each One is a Sect-of-One speaking for the Whole Corporate Org. And like the AMA, who never discipline a butcher-'doctor', so do the Christians collectively and tacitly merely roll-eyes to each other:

But never publicly slap-down the bestial-wing when it's out shootin queers, pronouncing zygotes to be Voting Citizens and.. otherwise garbling that Uniquely-Xian-Direct-celfone to the 'ears' of The UnKnowable [The Absolute].
(An 'access' which saner and more ancient groups have deemed.. about as valid as, "Your Own Personally-crafted God" cha cha cha.)

And to do That little sleight-of-Meaning, you have to commit a series of contortions:
sophistry, solecism - not to mention solipsism.
Edit, reedit, censor.
..along with Language murder of other degrees across all scales.

And then Christians, generally: dis everyone Not-You, whose Sages have expressed the Mystery of
[I Am and I Am Aware That I Am]

quite differently. And with quite more humility. *There's* the hubris that ever evokes: Opposition, as towards any other form of smarmy sanctimony - whether the SS or the ThD.

So that's why: "Christians", the whole unhomogeneous Lot of the individuals who claim Specialness: are lawful prey of those Who Know they may not Walk With God, get raptured outta the mess we made for ourselves of our chances to do better -- and smirk about Our Special Relationship with the Allied/Axis Power -- while watchin the Other Suckers get BBQed. It's too much like a teenage Guy Thing at the car races.



HTH

Ashton

Oh yeah too -

95.36% of the Christians I've ever encountered - have no knowledge of human myth-making (and the necessity for homo-saps to do this), couldn't discriminate the "truthfulness" of this or that 32nd degree hesaid-hesaid class exercise in gossip: all dumped into that Manual of revisions and omissions (like the pithy Gospel of St Thomas) yada yada.

It's the Blind stubbornly leading the blind around that Elephant. But I digress. Logic is never nearly enough.
Indra and the beautiful Blue-skinned Boy - watching columns of ants cross the Palace floor in perfect formation.
Blue Boy laughs.

Indra: Why do you laugh?
BB: Believe me, you will not wish to hear..

Indra: What are these ants? I wish to know. Teach.




BB: Former Indras All.
New Meh. Narrow is the way.

Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
New Yank chain . . . big noise!
My statements on God, omnipotent or otherwise, could only have been a Temptation to pointless but entertaining debate, since it is well known I do not subscribe to the Christian God concept in any way, shape, form or manner, but rather consider it absurdly simplistic.

To expect an ultimate and almighty God to be intimately and personally concerned with the tiny details of your own little life is an attempt to cram the entire infinite stack of universes into a very narrow space - simplifying infinite complexity by denying it entirely. Of course, the infinite complexity reserves the right to remind you of its presence any time it pleases, as with a lightning bolt.

This is not to say the near-side collective consciousness does not take an interest in your personal life, just as you take an interest in specific components of your body. You could interpret this collective as a "personal God", but not as an ultimate God, just a next step consciousness, itself an element of a collective on the infinitely long path to becoming God - a journey in which all entities are engaged, whether they like it not.

An important step for our mode of consciousness is called by Christians "The Fall from Grace" - ejection from the Garden of Eden - partaking of the fruit of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. "Behold, he has become as we" - God. In other words, achievement of a level of consciousness making you responsible for your own progress on the path to becoming God.

A central point of Christianity is to try to turn back and make God once again fully responsible under the banner of "Redemption". "He who believith in me shall have eternal life" - no other requirement. I'm sorry, there is no backsliding on the Path and no redemption save that you make yourself. Embrace Karma, for Karma will most certainly embrace you.

You needn't quote biblical passages as authority, for I hold that all books are written by men and women, edited and revised, always from an imperfect understanding and with an eye to the politics and economy of time and place. There is no book that is the Word of God, nor even a parody thereof. There is no evidence such a thing has ever existed or will ever exist.

In the words of Saint Thomas Aquinas, who accidently achieved enlightnment while taking a meditation break from writing yet another massive volume of theological argument, "All that I have written seems to me nothing but straw - compared with what I have seen and what has been revealed to me." No details, since he wrote no more.

-----------

Nothing, to know itself, divided itself into Everything, that it might recombine in all the infinite ways.

Everything, recombined negative to positive, ying to yang, masculine to feminine, and all the other equal polarities, cancels to Nothing.

Don't worry about this happening any time soon for it is all simultaneous and coincidental - time and space are simply conceits of our imperfect mode of perception.

All that has ever been is forever.

There is Nothing.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Did Tommy really write that? And you're quoting Pete.
I read a little of St. Thomas in HS and college but don't recall seeing your interesting quote. Do you have a cite?

And you seem to be quoting Pete Townshend there at the end. :-) [link|http://www.reallyrics.com/lyrics/P006900010022.asp|Let's see action] from his [link|http://www.meherbaba.co.uk/music.htm|Baba] phase:

Nothing is, everything
Everything is, nothing


Cheers,
Scott.
(Who just had a D'Oh! moment about Baba O'Reily...)
New Re: Did Tommy really write that? And you're quoting Pete.
No, I don't know if Tommy did write that, he said it. After enlightnment he never wrote again, at least not anything theological. The book he was writing at the time was abandoned where it sat. You can get all the cites you want by doing a Google search on "Thomas Aquinas" "nothing but straw".

Well, Pete Townshend got it elsewhere. Aleister Crowley expounded on this stuff and explained it 100 ways from Sunday back around 1900, but made no claim to being original. He extracted from ancient philosophies.

Nothing = Everything
Everything = Nothing
Zero = Infinity
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
Expand Edited by Andrew Grygus June 22, 2003, 02:56:58 PM EDT
New Synchronicity...
I just read that Aquinas quote in a novel I'm reading: "Darwin's Children".

He died a few months after writing it.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Betcha
he didn't 'mind' :-\ufffd
New Question:
This is not to say the near-side collective consciousness does not take an interest in your personal life, just as you take an interest in specific components of your body. You could interpret this collective as a "personal God", but not as an ultimate God, just a next step consciousness, itself an element of a collective on the infinitely long path to becoming God - a journey in which all entities are engaged, whether they like it not.


What leads/has lead you to believe this (specifically the bit about the path to becoming God)? More specifically, is there evidence?

Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
New Evidence? I thought we were discussing religion.
In observable space, you may notice that life and consciousness continue to become more and more complex with the passage of time. From molecules to cells to fungus to fish with organized nervous systems, and beyond. Now increasingly complex social structures organized by high speed communications - human "cells" begin to congeal into a super-organism.

Is not what we experience here below a shadow of higher orders? "As above, so below". The tendency to organize into organisms of greater and greater complexity would prevail, until a level where all are One, and One is God, no?

Now, lets take a look at a practical item, "reincarnation". Of course, if you subscribe to "scientific reality", you simply discount any and all stories of people with seeming knowledge of past events, posessing characteristics of people who have died, or levels of knowledge they should not have at their age, but this stuff keeps bubbling up anyway.

So our conciousnesses are cells, so to speak, of a larger far more complex collective consciousness. As with the body, cells are continuously dying and being created anew. So the elements of a person disassociate at various levels upon death, and the material of consciousness (soul, if you would) returns to the collective where it contributes to the collective's advancement.

New cells are created, and they incorporate stuff that has returned, so collective experience is gradually incorporated into new cells. Now, perhaps sometimes the stuff used hasn't had time to properly mix, like cards returned to the deck for a new deal, but the shuffle isn't that good, so some sequences in the deck are the same as in the old deal. It's a new person, but the new person incorporates some direct awareness of one who has returned.

All this stuff has been worked on for thousands of years by many cultures, and there's a fair degree of consensus in esoteric texts worldwide. Most of it takes a lot of digging though, because it's been obscured by the curse of "Organized Religion". All of this stuff detracts from the power structure of "authority".

The enlightment of Saint Thomas certainly wsn't welcomed by the church, but he kept quiet so they let it ride. No organizational religious structure controls the "gateway to heaven", it's an entirely individual thing and they cannot control it (but they sure want you to think they can), and no book contains the whole truth and final word. We're just learning, bit by bit, and "authority" is trying to burn it as we do.





[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Not necessarily
Is not what we experience here below a shadow of higher orders? "As above, so below". The tendency to organize into organisms of greater and greater complexity would prevail, until a level where all are One, and One is God, no?


Not in my book. The tendency to organize into organisms of greater and greater complexity only necessitates diversity, not unity It doesn't require that there's any being more complex than Man, and if it did, that doesn't require that a God or Gods encompass "lower" life forms, anymore than Man encompasses invertebrates. In other words, the One (highest, most complex being) may be God, but that doesn't necessitate "all are One".

And, as a toss-off side note, I whole-heartedly reject the use of "as above, so below" as an axiom of Reality. Just FYI.

Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
New From the viewpoint of "God is Without Limit" . .
. . it follows that All is included within God. If you say God is not All, then you are placing limits on God.

Of course, in the Pagan viewpoint, placing limits on god is routine. You draw a line around the hunk of All you wish to deal with and give it a name and personality. Now you have a "god" (an aspect of nature or natural forces or human characteristics or whatever you want to deal with) defined in a way which allows you to describe it's relationship with other similarly defined entities and how they relate to humanity, all in human terms. Such deliberately circumscribed definitions do not, however, invalidate All, which they are defined parts of.

So are you limiting God in the Pagan manner, or is God limitless, thus All Encompasing?

[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New I think I made it clear earlier in this thread...
...that (in my understanding) God has chosen to limit himself. Creation is a distinct dualistic act; the concept that there is something "not God". I'm not saying every religion or theology believes this (far from it), but it seems to be supported in OT/NT Hebraic thought. So the phrase "from the viewpoint of 'God is Without Limit'" brings us right back to my earlier post (with Ross) about what one means by "omnipotent", and how that is more often an axiom of one's system than a conclusion.

So I'd take issue with the humanist viewpoint that *I* am placing limits on God; I am not the inventor of Christianity or Judaism for that matter. None of my theologizing comes from some Nietzschean proto-theos where I just woke up one day and decided to create a Deity. It comes from an honest investigation (and reconciliation) of the witness written down in the OT and NT--I happen to have found those authors to be reasonably accurate, and believe what they testify to. Do all "Christians" feel the same way (i.e. wrt Christian epistemology)? No. But they don't have to in order to gain the benefits of the contract.

Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
New To speak of Reality!
[Heh]
as if you possessed the slightest knowledge of what That might Be - is precisely that hubris from which 'we' began the unending wars of opposing Ones Who Profess to Know. Like du jour. Cosmic Liars Dice?

To similarly, imagine that you possess the means for concluding.. something (!) about such an idea as, "as above so below" - is another example of this same class of thought, only worse: presuming to 'prove' a negative via simple digital logic.
[Hah - Loop0: recursive non-enlightenment\ufffd in Jahweh-script] Seems a lot like,

I don't like Bach!
OK now we know about you. What about Bach?

Fortunately we are each permitted to limit our horizons to the small self-generated halo about our unanointed heads. I suspect that this is a self-limiting protection against biting off more than a one can chew.

Unless of course, such a one gets to be a President or something - then there's no protection for the others :( Oh well.
(What 'others' (?))


Ashton
who 'likes' the Hungarian proverb,

The believer is happy
The doubter is wise
New G_d exists, we see or dont see in different ways
I know there is one but based on cause and effect personally, can I describe but an imperfect personal view of the entity I call as G_d? Not very effectivly. All religious writing are lensed thru the human writing them. If Ezekiel saw a spaceship what woukd be his point of reference? If a modern American saw a temporal representative created for a specific reason to nudge the anthill again, what would be the description? A lot of Alien encounters out there. Either one believes or does not, organizes their life around their understanding of that belief or decides there is nothing else and organizes their lives around self referencing morality. Either way we are both significant to the cosmos and insignificant both at the same time. We matter, my personal belief is that we retain our memories of everything we do and have enternity to contemplate them, with that in mind it drives my personal actions.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

As the Poets have mournfully sung.
Death takes the innocent young,
The rolling in money,
the screamingly funny,
And those who are very well hung.
W.H. Auden
New If you Could 'describe'
-- what would be the point of "attempting to Know that which is not describable but Is" (or by any number of better chosen words) ?

There's nothing in 'Christianity' or any other -ism (read for comprehension, that is) - which prevents one from investigating what is all around; those who think there is such imprecation: are neither Christ-ians nor even good mimics. So no one is tied to the LCD of Whatever early conditioning and inculcation of fixed mindset has happened by accident of birth. Except by choosing dumbth - an active choice.

Aquinas is merely one of the known! ones who "went beyond" the narrow caricature of It All - that caricature which today represents most of what people imagine Christianity is 'about'. Ever thus - the literal mind is the herdsman of conformity and shallowness; to make up a religion with a decent chance of longevity (as L. Ron grokked to fullness):

You must have the dumbed down (Win MErde) version for the mass, and then escalate the level to er Clear. Always there are the esoteric, mesoteric and exoteric 'circles' about any Idea. Of course, as to LRon, when the basis for the formation of The Group - is exploitation$ of the gullible.. well what kinda karma might that earn?

You already know this stuff, or nothing I could say would make the slightest sense [heh]: which I submit as prina facie 'proof' that proselytizing ever only gains converts of the shallowest kind. If'n ya can't [== won't! because you be Lazy] figure it out for yourself -?- nobody Can "give it to you" cha cha cha.

Gotta Love.. Cosmic Humour


Ashton
New And once again, you're doing the very thing you rail against

Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
New Heh.. only if you imagine
that I'm selling Salvation (too!) - merely by applying *niti.. niti.. across the board of popular dabblings in the Grand Guesses - obv a more popular pastime than the NYT Sunday Crossword, we see.

I guess that some folks really have to believe that the girl Was sawed in half, then artfully reassembled by The Great Tetrazzini.. to appear in the fish tank behind the curtain.

Carry on.
I'll have the haddock. (On my plate, not my bumper thanyouverymuch)
Have no need to invent ways to scare myself into Line.


* not this.. not this..


I Who Be
New I may notice, or I may notice something different
As Gould is fond of pointing out at great length, the theme of life over long periods of time is simply greater diversity. Sometimes that means becoming more complex. Sometimes less. For instance parasites tend to perfect themselves through minimalism.

The increasing complexity that we are so fond of noticing is just the leading edge of an expanding variety of forms of life. However for all of history, and for the forseeable future, the bulk of life by number, mass, and sheer variety are single-celled bacteria.

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New Unless you look at the smallest viable unit.
In particular parasites are minimalist because they aren't complete. They cannot be regarded without their host. All other life is just as interdependent, though not so immediately so.

A human body is made up of a great many separate lifeforms, and some are pretty independent too. The whole cannot survive without all the parts. Where do you want to draw the line to individuate this? A white blood cell probably feels pretty individual. It's all in how you want to look at it.

No living being can survive without the others. Even simple single celled photosynthetic plants cannot survive alone, because they'd eventually drown in their own waste product, oxygen, and at points in the distant past came fairly close. Fortunately, some fungi like item developed into larger and more complex critters called "animals" to sop up some of that oxygen (yes, fungi are genetically considered animals).

So taking the world organism as a whole, since that's the smallest viable unit, it is growing in complexity. Increasing diversity is part of that, as is the development of it's leading edge cells, which we are pleased to presume are ourselves.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New The smallest viable unit is smaller than that...
The ecosystems at hydrothermal vents are self-contained enough to survive indefinitely if we went away.

The ecosystems living deep inside rock (basically just a few bacteria over a huge volume - possibly as much as half of the Earth's biomass) again wouldn't notice for a while if we destroyed everything upstairs.

And note that neither of these units needs us, and the more stable one (rock-bacteria) is not very diverse.

We still lose.

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New 'No-Thing-ness'
Thou sayest.. others with an apparent acquaintance have made such comments (in referring to that which we imperfectly label 'nothingness') as..

~ A silence within deep blue-black non-space, alive, full of all that can be as well as all that cannot be, being/nonbeing/becoming.
Or similar brief phrases. Of course too, the 'describer' is fully aware of the indescribability of umm waking up to the Mystery of which one is an integral part .. but people keep on Asking! hence the few words.

Heh.. 99.9999% of everything we 'know' is false - how's That for a glittering generality?



Ashton
who would probably not feel proud to experience Nothing. ness.
"Fear of nonexistence" - what a Crock ;-)

PS re your last quotes:
Not far from another allegory,
The Absolute, in order to know Itself, created all these mirrors - yet there is (er Real-ly) only One.

Perfect antidote to all the Corporate religiosity ever, but the idea is hidden from all! by being placed in plain sight. Kinda like Thomas's quote about (this Kingdom of God thingie), after he disabuses of the naive ideas of either 'time' or 'place':

"All around you lies [__] yet you will not see it!"

hee hee
New Exactly
God is that which is simultaneously subject and object. He receives no messages, nor does he engender any. Nevertheless we are Aware of him - he Is that he Is. And we communicate with him - by adjustment to Existence. In that way, our will guides us onward to survival.

It will be apparent that all animals feel this. A roach will run from a rain of chemicals, just like a Kurd.

Now, the fascinating thing about Christianity is this - because it can accomdate both omnipotence and lack of it in the form of the materially human Christ who is spiritually Aware of the Infinite, is goes beyond simple metaphysics (what can exist) into ethics (what should exist, or better, what deserves to exist by intrinsic merit - the latter being that which survives). The duality of Christ mirrors the monodromy of the Father (both subject and object, Alpha and Omega).
-drl
New God is hard to define
all we have is writings about him, the bible, what the Church thinks, what other people wrote, but God is still hard to define. It is like trying to stuff infinity into a finite box.

We Christians belive that God took human form as Jesus, and limited his abilities so that he would die as a human being does, but then come back to life in three days. Just like the rest of us, as a human he had to eat, sleep, etc. He taught us that sins can be forgiven and that God even loves those who are outcasts, those who are gentiles, tax collectors, and others that normally would have been overlooked. It is taught to us that even a murderer on death row can repent his sins and later enter Heaven after he dies in the electric chair. The blood of Jesus can wash away the stains of any sin, we are taught. No matter how many or how big.

While I cannot find the verse now, Jesus did say that the Father was greater than Jesus was. But the church taught us that God is a Trinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirt. All three are part of the same God. If the Father is greater than the Son, then Jesus must have had limits put on him that the father doesn't have. Jesus said "Your will be done, not mine" to the Father, showing that Jesus has his own will but let the Father take over for his will. Could it be the same for the rest of us to have a Free Will, but we can let God's Will take over for it if we want to?




"I wonder how much of this BS Corporations will continue to shallow before they start looking into alternatives to Microsoft software?" -[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=106839|Orion]
New Re: God is hard to define - umm Really ??
Who. Would. Have. THOUGHT! such.a.thing. Hah: You!

We non-Christians see nothing in your (now multi-volume set of committee meeting notes) that is useful to the purpose. Or any purpose - except keeping alive a massive Corporate group of personnel - (too-) many of whom, for possessing valuable sinecures: now guard these fantasy-positions as assiduously as any other rubber-goods CIEIO.

Youse guys couldn't understand a metaphor if it bit you on the ass and left tooth marks - and your spokes-Persons are constantly rubbing everyone Else's! nose in this massive and simple-minded conjecture about

All That Is.

Other groups.. tend to keep bloody mouths Shut about matters which are only and everywhere: for quiet and solitary personal discovery.. and not for inane and puerile ad-campaigns door-to-door, like any peddler of branded snake-oils.

Your Guys\ufffd are the impetus behind more wars than love, more me-me-me profits than compassion - and more sanctimonious hate-filled BS than a stockyard.

ie: I demur.


Ashton
New Shine the light of truth, brother! :)
Alex

"Passionate hatred can give meaning and purpose to an empty life." -- Eric Hoffer
     Must we...? - (tseliot) - (33)
         Re: Must we...? - (deSitter) - (5)
             Nice try. - (tseliot) - (2)
                 Hmm. A couple of passages. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                     Always a "yes, but" :) - (tseliot)
             Sorry, I've got to. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                 Well said; hadn't thought about that before. -NT - (tseliot)
         here's a take from about 45 years ago - (rcareaga)
         Omnipotent with a twisted sense of humor -NT - (boxley)
         An interesting synchronicity with your sig. - (Ashton) - (1)
             Meh. Narrow is the way. -NT - (tseliot)
         Yank chain . . . big noise! - (Andrew Grygus) - (22)
             Did Tommy really write that? And you're quoting Pete. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                 Re: Did Tommy really write that? And you're quoting Pete. - (Andrew Grygus)
             Synchronicity... - (admin) - (1)
                 Betcha - (Ashton)
             Question: - (tseliot) - (12)
                 Evidence? I thought we were discussing religion. - (Andrew Grygus) - (11)
                     Not necessarily - (tseliot) - (7)
                         From the viewpoint of "God is Without Limit" . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                             I think I made it clear earlier in this thread... - (tseliot)
                         To speak of Reality! - (Ashton) - (4)
                             G_d exists, we see or dont see in different ways - (boxley) - (1)
                                 If you Could 'describe' - (Ashton)
                             And once again, you're doing the very thing you rail against -NT - (tseliot) - (1)
                                 Heh.. only if you imagine - (Ashton)
                     I may notice, or I may notice something different - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                         Unless you look at the smallest viable unit. - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                             The smallest viable unit is smaller than that... - (ben_tilly)
             'No-Thing-ness' - (Ashton) - (1)
                 Exactly - (deSitter)
             God is hard to define - (orion) - (2)
                 Re: God is hard to define - umm Really ?? - (Ashton) - (1)
                     Shine the light of truth, brother! :) -NT - (a6l6e6x)

My toddler just put a Cheeto in my belly button. How is your day going?
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