America appears to be winning this new style war ....

Post #10,552 by dmarker2 9/26/01 10:09:19 AM Reply	America appears to be winning this new style war .... This seems to be the scenario ... 1) Raise the spectre of massive military retaliation (needed to get global peoples attention after years of ignoring the attacks because they were mostly aimed at US related targets) 2) Use the devestating 11 sep attack to make closer contact with all govts be they previously hostile or friendly, to create a moral high-ground 3) Give enough time for the main issues to clearly emerge, these seem to be ... - will US act 'wildly' in retaliation - will US response trigger an Islam vs West result - were these attacks the start of a 'program' - who will join in a US led anti-terror campaign - will Afghanistan take the brunt of US 'rage' 4) US has asked Afghanistan to expell / surrender Bin Laden but is showing considerable caution in how it deals with Taliban 5) US has succesfully focused world attention on terror cells & is succeeding in getting arrests around the world in a now coordinated effort that would not have happened before sep 11th 6) US appears to well understand Islamic fears and concerns & appears to be showing a masterful managing of these 7) If US is able to smash the core of Al Quaeda by just implied military threats, and doesn't need to attack Afghanistan, then US has to be the winner - terrorists failed I am optomistic that Cheney & Powell have got it right & are well on the way to a new kind of victory confronting a new type of warfare. Cheers Doug Marker (still don't know where Iraq fits in but am sure Saddam is involed somehow - If US can neutralise him without military attacks, that would be another victory)
Post #10,559 by boxley 9/26/01 10:36:28 AM Reply	give it a month and they will all starve to death :( only the non combatents though. Good thing I am not in charge I would immeadiately find an unoccupied flat spot. Humoungous appearing attempt to establish a base by air. Offer food and shelter to any who come. Make friends. As the taliban or whoever start surrounding the area move people and equipment to the refugee camps, feed them, clothe them. Have a very lightly staffed but huge amount of humanitarian aid in the middle of the country. Exfiltrate rapidly leave the area. As the victorious whosits move in you would have a lot of infiltrators in their ranks, folks who are nasty in the dark planted all over the place. Then it is a nasty brutish shoot and loot and book. The world wonders what why the US lost, we kill the heads of the beast and make some friends in the area. Stick around the edges and leave some friends in place. Now the the real problem, the bekka valley, parts of Iraq (not bugdad) where the pirates live. We are not fighting nations but pirates, freebooters and slavers just like the 18th and 19th century. It is time to clean out the nests and thank the host country politely as we pull out with our trophy heads. thanx, bill why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them? Randy Wayne White
Post #10,563 by brettj 9/26/01 11:22:02 AM Reply	Let's call it a battle instead. War is such an ugly word. It means that innocent people will die. That is sad. Thanks for your thoughtful analysis. Peace be with you. (:
Post #10,565 by Andrew Grygus 9/26/01 12:03:37 PM Reply	Lets call it what it is. Innocent people have already died, around 6000 of them in one day. Plenty more innocents will die, maybe thousands more, maybe tens of thousands. You know the perpetrators will make every effort to maximize the number of their own innocents who will be killed by any action we take. Noncombatants are of no value to them except as body counts. Sad? No, it's infuriating. The guilty can never be sufficiently punished. This is war, yes, it is war. Lets not try to "pretty it up". [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #10,568 by brettj 9/26/01 12:38:01 PM Reply	It's a matter of perspective, in my opinion. These hate-filled people have declared war but we haven't attacked any nations, races, religions or peoples. Why? We don't want to escalate this into a war. Am I wrong? This is a fight against terrorism and those the perpetrate it. These murderers may enjoy killing innocent women and children but America and the rest of the World does not. We have grown past that stage. That is my opinion and I am sticking by it. Sometimes you just have to have faith. Now is one of those times.
Post #10,576 by Ashton 9/26/01 3:23:18 PM Reply	I'll take it you are serious. Here is a possible scenario - Unfortunately.. 'killing' is not always so dramatic and so wholesale as - as what we all saw on 9/11. If it were, every time, just maybe it would be more in our collective nature to actively seek and find non-lethal solutions to our squabbles (usually over control of the Earth's resources; whatever is said about "Gods' Wills"). Perhaps next, via our techno: each death could be shown in slo-mo, million-color as the piece of some object flattens a living human, one loved by someone else who must next contemplate: What To Do about This killing. Next ?? These hate-filled people have declared war but we haven't attacked any nations, races, religions or peoples. Why? We don't want to escalate this into a war. As a species - we seem unable to be honest about what we are actually killing about, each time: and this time. And next. Leaders get away with the platitudes because those are what we want to believe. This must be the case, otherwise their 'logic' (for the next groups of 19-year-old cannon fodder: ALWAYS somebody's children) - would be ridiculed for its patent absurdity. (Kuwait wasn't about oil. Grenada was a threat to 'national security'.) Those who blame.. America? the idea of America? the past actions of those covert operations allegedly the ~"will of Americans" ?? etc. may or may not have each story straight -- but carry around the hatred of that which they are "sure enough" -- caused the death, injury of some one person close to them. Sometimes this 'causality' is a tortured syllogism, leading to a comfortable target for the grief caused. Maybe other times - the causality is unmistakeable (?) Ask a Chilean who loved Allende - for just one specimen. (Others will settle for the hearsay and the admonitions of their local.. Authority figures) As here: remember the cold war? First Strike? (might be the only way to survive: nuke Them All first!). Was it overall any more cerebral, less a visceral reaction than: kill a Commie for Christ ? This attitude began while.. WW-II was winding down and it became obvious that: Stalin wasn't about to withdraw from the occupied E. Eur. countries. Finally after decades a Gorbachev appeared and Enough! was declared. Miraculously no one used a single nuke -- but it was Very close in 10/62. (Almost) nobody is 'innocent' of willingly believing stereotypes about opponents - always generated so as to de-humanize the ones in Your crosshairs. Or turning a blind eye to one's own machinations - for advantage. (If the target isn't really human, then you aren't really killing people.. just.. The Enemy.) Were you unfamiliar with this process? Last I looked: it's still the main one. Truth re motives is not this species' strong suit, y'notice? HTH Ashton
Post #10,577 by brettj 9/26/01 3:32:55 PM Reply	Are you suggesting we can't change? I thought free will was a given. Let he who is without sin throw the first stone.
Post #10,578 by Ashton 9/26/01 3:54:34 PM Reply	Re: Are you suggesting we can't change? Language was invented that men could disguise their thoughts from each other In love, war, bizness, sports, science (in the pursuit of tenure), religion (in the pursuit of appearing Right-eous) ... Have I missed some? Art, music - more honest - there are no words and beauty needs none. (Even bad art is at least authentic. Unless it's selling something - then it isn't art anyway.) Free will? Change our nature? Sorry - don't know what that means. Another problem with our species: there is little agreement even about, ~"what it means to Be"! let alone.. 'to be human'. A.
Post #10,659 by wharris2 9/27/01 3:52:02 AM Reply	Free will? Are you saying the Arabic people (Palestinians, Afghanistanis, Iraqis, many others) who are constantly harranged at how evil Israel and American and the west in general are can truly be said to have free will? We (using "we" as in most of the western democracies) are bombarded with politicians, TV talking heads, editorials, advertising, and whatnot, so in that respect it could be said that we are constantly being brainwashed - but that's nothing compared to the hatred that seems to spew out of the middle east. Who knows how empty the sky is In the place of a fallen tower. Who knows how quiet it is in the home Where a son has not returned. -- Anna Akhmatova (1889-1966)
Post #10,662 by Ashton 9/27/01 4:10:03 AM Reply	Appropriate, almost eerie Akhmatova quote. Another sample - When you're drunk it's so much fun -- Your stories don't make sense. An early fall has strung The elms with yellow flags. We've strayed into the land of deceit And we're repenting bitterly, Why then are we smiling these Strange and frozen smiles? We wanted piercing anguish Instead of placid happiness. . . I won't abandon my comrade, So dissolute and mild. 1911 (Paris) -- translated by Judith Hemschemeyer And a brief comment from: [link\|http://dybka.home.mindspring.com/jill/akhmatova/\|About the poet] Anna Andreevna Akhmatova (1889-1966) "Anna Andreevna Akhmatova used poetry to give voice to the struggles and deepest yearnings of the Russian people, for whom she remains the greatest of literary heroines. She has lately come to symbolize for the world even beyond Russia the power of art to survive and transcend the terrors of our century." Judith Hemschemeyer, A Stranger to Heaven and Earth Thanks for reminding about her. A.
Post #10,757 by brettj 9/28/01 8:25:35 AM Reply	Everyone has free will. Some just choose to blame others for their lack of it. P.S. Free will is a biblical concept that states that God allows good and evil in this world and it is up to us to choose which side we prefer to show the world. There will always be those that choose evil over good but sometimes you just have to have faith that there are more good people in this world than evil people, and also that the good people will stand up to the violent minority and conquer evil? Do you disagree with me again? Remember what I stated before? All you need is love. You answered: "Should we love them to death?!" My silent answer was Yes. Peace be with you. Choose love, not hate.
Post #10,777 by CRConrad 9/28/01 10:59:14 AM Reply	Again, a Jeezmoid demonstrates a sadly narrow point of view. The Brettster: P.S. Free will is a biblical concept that states that God allows good and evil in this world and it is up to us to choose which side we prefer to show the world. Funny, I thought the question of predestination vs free will was a philosophical -- as in, each puny religion is just one (stupidly superstitious backwater) sub-sector of the wider catregory -- concept. But, hey, if it's an important question, then of course it _MUST_ be "biblical" (NB, they're not even letting the other stupid old superstitions get a look in), right...? Shee-eesh! Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #10,789 by brettj 9/28/01 11:57:35 AM Reply	Your catch phrase says it all. BTW, did you notice I mentioned I am new to religion? You, on the other hand, know everything about everything. Sorry to offend you. Peace.
Post #10,792 by ChrisR 9/28/01 12:08:02 PM Reply	Don't know but... Funny, I thought the question of predestination vs free will was a philosophical -- as in, each puny religion is just one (stupidly superstitious backwater) sub-sector of the wider catregory -- concept. I would think that the more general concept in Philosophy is defined in terms of Behaviorism - i.e. whether we simply react to stimili or whether we can truly transcend our impulses. Anyhow, I'm not sure that the question of predistination versus free will really has much meaning outside a theological context (and really not much meaning there except to tie up some loose ends about the "chosen" ones).
Post #10,801 by marlowe 9/28/01 12:49:12 PM Reply	You got a problem with the Bible saying stuff? Is it intruding on philosophy's turf? And are you sure you know who was there first? And last but not least: was your reaction the result of free will, or was it strictly deterministic? [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Post #10,804 by brettj 9/28/01 12:59:42 PM Reply	I swallowed your bait, hook, line & sinker. And here I was supposed to be on the look-out for flame bait. My bad. ):
Post #10,569 by brettj 9/26/01 12:53:47 PM Reply	On second thought I'm not sure what to call it? Awful comes to mind. I see your point and I sorta see my previous point. Either way we are fighting evil, that is for sure.
Post #10,878 by brettj 9/29/01 1:18:11 AM Reply	Coalition: virtually the entire world in support This news brings joy to my heart. Peace has a chance. [link\|http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,312955-412,00.shtml\| Coalition Building ] WASHINGTON, Sept. 28, 2001 Reuters Powell with the Spanish foreign minister (CBS) CBS News State Department Reporter Charles Wolfson, who often travels with Secretary of State Colin Powell, offers background and analysis in his regular Diplomatic Dispatch. Building a coalition in modern diplomacy is a time consuming task, requiring a time commitment not easily made by officials whose schedules are planned weeks and months in advance. The events of Sept. 11, however, were so sudden and traumatic in their execution and impact that the administration of President Bush has been able to unite virtually the entire world in support of Mr. Bush's declared war on terrorism. First, America's NATO allies jumped on board, invoking for the first time Chapter Five of its charter, saying, in effect, an attack against one is an attack against all. NATO pledged military assistance if requested. The European Union joined quickly, its members' banks freezing perhaps $100 million in Afghanistan's assets. The Organization of American States took action similar to NATO.
Post #10,885 by Andrew Grygus 9/29/01 5:14:38 AM Reply	The backpedaling will now commence. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #10,887 by bepatient 9/29/01 5:53:20 AM Reply	How much you want to bet... ...that of the western nations...we lose France first ;) You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #10,895 by wharris2 9/29/01 9:28:52 AM Reply	Won't take it We saved their butts twice, and they've always disliked us for it. (note: not hated, just disliked.) We did for them what they couldn't do for themselves. In fifty years they haven't gotten over it. Who knows how empty the sky is In the place of a fallen tower. Who knows how quiet it is in the home Where a son has not returned. -- Anna Akhmatova (1889-1966)
Post #10,907 by Andrew Grygus 9/29/01 12:21:19 PM Reply	Not a chance i'll take that bet . . frogs have no balls. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #10,914 by bepatient 9/29/01 2:23:46 PM Reply	LoL You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #10,918 by Ashton 9/29/01 2:46:05 PM Reply	Well, got one word for ya - actually two: Algeria. Vietnam. (Add that second one to Our list BTW) They, with ALL of Europe - failed utterly to simply read Mein Kampff, notice the timetable as it checked off - and remove heads from Murican-style fantasyland. Guilty. Accordingly had to bear goose-stepping Nazis at the Arc de Triomphe. Had their Vichy as Norway its Quisling - but also their share of heroic underground folk. 'Course all of 20th century history can't be done with slogans, even among the illuminati, a comfy 5000 miles away. Still, with both the above egregious national experiences of past 50 years; lots of heaped dead burned bodies: now with Dubya! putatively organizing the most subtle of all the intricate details across a huge Unknown (OR just maybe.. if some of those details are gotten wrong or too hurried: coalescing the Jihad to end All Jihads, from "next door" ??) What would you do as President of Republique? (with French population, GNP - not Murican one) A.
Post #10,922 by bepatient 9/29/01 3:47:31 PM Reply	Considering the amount... ...of terrorism that occurs within their borders....in Paris...some that I've personally witnessed...I would >expect< them to remain loyal.... But I also know them too well to assume that they would react to this with anything but the typical "r\ufffdponse fran\ufffdaise". ..most notably to fall out of the alliance and start selling missiles to the other side. With this...they will probably have good company with the Chinese. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]

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