Post #105,443
6/9/03 6:31:12 PM
6/9/03 6:36:05 PM
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Re: Changing student desktops from Red Hat
Tom wrote, concerning Red Hat:
- It seems kind of pokey on our hardware (p3-800, 128 MB RAM, 16 MB VRAM)
- Red Hat Network updates seemed like a good idea at first, but now they're beginning to drive me a bit nuts as I attempt to maintain multiple desktops.
Both problems can be addressed without leaving Red Hat. Go to [link|http://apt.freshrpms.net/|http://apt.freshrpms.net/] and pull down the apt tools and prototype sources.list file for your Red Hat release. Install onto your Red Hat boxes, and now you have not only a standard means of maintaining all student systems incrementally, but also network access to not only all official Red Hat updates but also ancillary packages like additional window managers. If, as seems likely, you have already pared down what services those machines run, the other likely cause of pokey performance is that RH's default GNOME/KDE configuration has gotten steadily more RAM-hungry over the years. Simply switching to a traditionalist's window manager such as ICEwm, Window Maker, Blackbox, etc. might be all the performance gain you need.
I run Debian's Window Maker on a variety of aging systems, and none of them has more CPU or RAM than the systems you describe. All of them strike me as having fine performance. Last time I tried Window Maker retrieved via apt onto Red Hat (RH8, I believe), it was perfectly fine, too.
I'm currently looking at a hard disk install of Knoppix as I've been impressed with its ease of use as a CD-based distro plus it comes "out of the box" with all the tools my coders need.
Bear in mind that the sheer quantity of what Knoppix includes can actually be a bit excessive. If you'd rather build Debian systems a bit more sparsely, you'll want to start them using a different installer. (There are quite a few to choose from.)
Is there an equivalent to rpmfind.net for .deb packages?
Not really very necessary. Debian-stable has something over 8,000 packages available in the official package mirrors. Debian-testing and Debian-unstable have passed 12,000 packages and still growing.
What you might have in mind is the site that chronicles unofficial apt repositories, [link|http://www.apt-get.org/|http://www.apt-get.org/]. If something isn't available from official sources for your branch, you might find it packaged unofficially there, instead. For example, suppose you had an NVidia GeForce 4 video card and need XFree86 4.3.0 compiled for Debian 3.0 = current stable = woody. There's an unofficial source for those packages, whose package-source line you just copy into /etc/apt/sources.list and away you go. Beware that unofficial packages inherently carry much less assurance (i.e., no guarantee at all) of meeting Debian Policy-compliance and security standards for official packages.
Would it be worth my time to set up a local file server for updates and new .deb packages?
Sure. This is easy to do. Install apt-proxy. Its home page and some documentation are at [link|http://apt-proxy.sourceforge.net/|http://apt-proxy.sourceforge.net/].
How risky is it to use Debian 'unstable'?
The downside is that something serious (or non-serious) may break whenever you perform the apt-get dance, so it's recommended only for people who've gained considerable experience and confidence with understanding and debugging Debian and its package subsystem. If you're new to Debian and willing to be a bit bold, venture as far as Debian-testing, but not Debian-unstable.
Are there any gotchas I should be wary of?
Well, if you're installing Knoppix to a hard drive, you're starting with a slightly variant system that's eight parts Debian-testing, one part Debian-unstable, and one part God-knows-what. That hasn't been a problem in my experience (the natural thing to do is track Debian-testing, thereafter), but be aware that there will be occasional slight differences from orthodox Debian systems. For example, your initial default runlevel will be 5 (like RH) rather than Debian's more usual runlevel 2.
You may want to delete the username and groupname "knoppix" created as an artifact of using this method of installation:
# deluser knoppix
# delgroup knoppix
Also, Knoppix's provision of literally dozens of locales settings is excessive for an installed system, and results in much wasted time every time package "locales" gets upgraded. So, do:
# dpkg-reconfigure locales
...and unmark all language/country settings (locales) you expect never to use, mark the ones you wish to add, then select the one locale you wish to be primary. Locales will be regenerated one more time.
You may find other useful ideas in my perennially disorganised list of Debian tips, [link|http://linuxmafia.com/debian/tips|http://linuxmafia.com/debian/tips] . Mind the dust; newer material is generlaly closer to the bottom.
Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
Edited by rickmoen
June 9, 2003, 06:36:05 PM EDT
Re: Changing student desktops from Red Hat
Tom wrote, concerning Red Hat:
- It seems kind of pokey on our hardware (p3-800, 128 MB RAM, 16 MB VRAM)
- Red Hat Network updates seemed like a good idea at first, but now they're beginning to drive me a bit nuts as I attempt to maintain multiple desktops.
Both problems can be addressed without leaving Red Hat. Go to [link|http://apt.freshrpms.net/|http://apt.freshrpms.net/] and pull down the apt tools and prototype sources.list file for your Red Hat release. Install onto your Red Hat boxes, and now you have not only a standard means of maintaining all student systems incrementally, but also network access to not only all official Red Hat updates but also ancillary packages like additional window managers. If, as seems likely, you have already pared down what services those machines run, the other likely cause of pokey performance is that RH's default GNOME/KDE configuration has gotten steadily more RAM-hungry over the years. Simply switching to a traditionalist's window manager such as ICEwm, Window Maker, Blackbox, etc. might be all the performance gain you need.
I run Debian's Window Maker on a variety of aging systems, and none of them has more CPU or RAM than the systems you describe. All of them strike me as having fine performance. Last time I tried Window Maker retrieved via apt onto Red Hat (RH8, I believe), it was perfectly fine, too.
I'm currently looking at a hard disk install of Knoppix as I've been impressed with its ease of use as a CD-based distro plus it comes "out of the box" with all the tools my coders need.
Bear in mind that the sheer quantity of what Knoppix includes can actually be a bit excessive. If you'd rather build Debian systems a bit more sparsely, you'll want to start them using a different installer. (There are quite a few to choose from.)
Is there an equivalent to rpmfind.net for .deb packages?
Not really very necessary. Debian-stable has something over 8,000 packages available in the official package mirrors. Debian-testing and Debian-unstable have passed 12,000 packages and still growing.
What you might have in mind is the site that chronicles unofficial apt repositories, [link|http://www.apt-get.org/|http://www.apt-get.org/]. If something isn't available from official sources for your branch, you might find it packaged unofficially there, instead. For example, suppose you had an NVidia GeForce 4 video card and need XFree86 4.3.0 compiled for Debian 3.0 = current stable = woody. There's an unofficial source for those packages, whose package-source line you just copy into /etc/apt/sources.list and away you go. Beware that unofficial packages inherently carry much less assurance (i.e., no guarantee at all) of meeting Debian Policy-compliance and security standards for official packages.
Would it be worth my time to set up a local file server for updates and new .deb packages?
Sure. This is easy to do. Install apt-proxy. Its home page and some documentation are at [link|http://apt-proxy.sourceforge.net/|http://apt-proxy.sourceforge.net/].
How risky is it to use Debian 'unstable'?
The downside is that something serious (or non-serious) may break whenever you perform the apt-get dance, so it's recommended only for people who've gained considerable experience and confidence with understanding and debugging Debian and its package subsystem. If you're new to Debian and willing to be a bit bold, venture as far as Debian-testing, but not Debian-unstable.
Are there any gotchas I should be wary of?
Well, if you're installing Knoppix to a hard drive, you're starting with a slightly variant system that's eight parts Debian-testing, one part Debian-unstable, and one part God-knows-what. That hasn't been a problem in my experience (the natural thing to do is track Debian-testing, thereafter), but be aware that there will be occasional slight differences from orthodox Debian systems. For example, your initial default runlevel will be 5 (like RH) rather than Debian's more usual runlevel 2.
You may want to delete the username and groupname "knoppix" created as
an artifact of using this method of installation:
# deluser knoppix
# delgroup knoppix
Also, Knoppix's provision of literally dozens of locales settings is
excessive for an installed system, and results in much wasted time every
time package "locales" gets upgraded. So, do:
# dpkg-reconfigure locales
...and unmark all language/country settings (locales) you expect never
to use, mark the ones you wish to add, then select the one locale you
wish to be primary. Locales will be regenerated one more time.
You may find other useful ideas in my perennially disorganised list of
Debian tips, [link|http://linuxmafia.com/debian/tips|http://linuxmafia.com/debian/tips] . Mind the dust; newer
material is generlaly closer to the bottom.
Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
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