Post #104,660
6/3/03 5:19:05 PM
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Question for the language pedants out there...
When did it become acceptable to begin a sentence with the word 'But'.
I'm pretty sure that when I was learning to write, this was not considered proper.
I have been noticing that I can't get through a news article without seeing at least one 'yada yada yada. But yada yada...' The first sentence is not usually a particularly long one either.
So... Is my mind going and this has always been normal practice, or is this a relatively new development?
Curiously,
Hugh
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Post #104,662
6/3/03 5:29:49 PM
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That's a close call
It seems acceptable to do: Yadda yadda yadda. However, yadda yadda. Since "but" and "however" are synonyms, it seems what's good for one should be good for the other. But since we're talking about recent changes, when did we drop "to be"? As in, "This needs fixed." ===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #104,666
6/3/03 5:45:23 PM
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That one also drives me up a wall...
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Post #104,664
6/3/03 5:35:56 PM
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This is a bogus "rule"
It is my understanding that the rule arose in 18th century England, when grammars were being produced as prescriptions of the "right" way to talk and write. Apparently it was felt that, because "but" is a coordinating conjunction, it could not come at the beginning of a sentence where it would have nothing to coordinate. (Coordination between sentences was, apparently, beyond the ken of these grammarians.) [link|http://nweb.pct.edu/homepage/staff/evavra/ED498/Essay001.htm|Link] -----------------------------------------
[link|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html|?W]
Where's Osama? Where's the WMD? Where's the Anthrax killer? Where's the report of the investigation on 9/11?
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Post #104,665
6/3/03 5:39:31 PM
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Good, support for what I plan to keep doing anyway ;)
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #104,667
6/3/03 5:49:14 PM
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Nice link
Although it does seem to be evidence that I'm turning into a fogey...
While the 18th century does preceed me by a bit, I did spend some of my formative years in Virginia, so it probably just seemed like the 18th century.
Thanks,
Hugh
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Post #104,671
6/3/03 6:25:28 PM
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18th century in Virginia?
Modernist. :)
In some of the mountains of Virginia and North Carolina, the local dialect is the closest modern equivalent to middle english there is. Methinks.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #104,672
6/3/03 6:27:06 PM
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No.
The closest modern equivalent to middle English is the Geordie accent, as spoken in the North-East of England.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #104,679
6/3/03 7:03:38 PM
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Fight!
No, not really. I'm just parroting information I've read elsewhere, is all.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #104,697
6/3/03 8:34:23 PM
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In the mountains of the carolines and virginia
the local dialect is closer to 17th century english as spoken by welsh and scots, On the coast of those states they sound remarkable like Bristol folks. Wargghh.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
"I hit him so hard in the head his dog shat a turd in the shape of Jesus" Leonard Pine
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Post #104,699
6/3/03 8:49:37 PM
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Oh, come on...
...You weren't *THAT* hard to understand. ;-)
-YendorMike
[link|http://www.hope-ride.org/|http://www.hope-ride.org/]
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Post #104,737
6/4/03 2:25:34 AM
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I'm not from these parts.
I be a midlander.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #104,678
6/3/03 6:55:06 PM
6/3/03 6:59:14 PM
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That is certainly my experience.
Had an intermittent education in England (1st foray was age 10, last age 15). And I can clearly recall the most recent 'English' classes at grammar school in Surrey (Sth West of London), where we were emphatically told not to start a sentence with 'but'.
But, times change :-)
Cheers
Doug
Edited by dmarker
June 3, 2003, 06:55:34 PM EDT
Edited by dmarker
June 3, 2003, 06:59:14 PM EDT
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Post #104,681
6/3/03 7:10:43 PM
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**giggle**
And, if you don't do it too often, you can even get away with starting a sentence with "and"!
jb4
"We continue to live in a world where all our know-how is locked into binary files in an unknown format. If our documents are our corporate memory, Microsoft still has us all condemned to Alzheimer's."
Simon Phipps, SUN Microsystems
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Post #104,710
6/3/03 9:41:42 PM
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Conversational - recitation
Poems have lines that begin with conjuctions - it's like that.
More writing is like recitation now because of TV and radio - we think aurally.
Could be the forum environment encourages that.
Damned if I'll stop.
-drl
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Post #104,711
6/3/03 9:44:44 PM
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What about Pl's?
This is somehow almost OK if the pluralized thing is small, like a digit. "I'm at 6's and 7's." Then it's more or less a contraction of "sixes and sevens" and this is a valid use.
-drl
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Post #104,722
6/3/03 10:49:20 PM
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That's the difficulty.. illustrated with such as,
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.
But I believe that this one is on the scale of, never start a sentence with "I". [Note the Puritan derivation of the sentiment behind That 'rule'] I suppose we were all exposed to pedantry intermixed with some also pretty wise hints & tips -- which is why professional writers or their lesser-cousins, journalists: had to invent what Strunk finally codified in, The Elements of Style. Children probably *should* be given, initially fewer options; they aren't equipped to handle the exceptions well - and only time and experience can make them ready to actually discriminate amidst whatever they will have absorbed. (Reading to a child is Never optional, I trust that 100% here need no reminders about.)
Still and all, IMnshO.. and as Ross has just reminded: we indeed think in verbal structure -- with pauses,,,, etc. not unlike the Genius that was Victor Borge (in his skit with verbal punctuation noises).
ie It is Good to know the rules, at least Strunklike - and necessary if you wish to be published -- before you deign to intentionally break them. Then, whether or not you succeeded in the aim of your excrescences will depend upon who, if anyone -?- grokked to fullness. No?
;-)
Ashton
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Post #104,752
6/4/03 8:04:07 AM
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That's the thing about breaking rules
To do it well, you generally have to know what the rule is, and why you're breaking it.
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #104,746
6/4/03 7:25:42 AM
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Syntax error
A proper sentence is a complete self-contained thing. The syntax for "but" is [A but B]. In order to start a sentence with "but", A has to be outside the sentence, thus breaking the completeness of the sentence.
But there is a category error in the derivation of the rule this sentence breaks. Sentences don't have to be logicaly complete, only formaly complete. A sentence can rely on context for logic, otherwise you couldn't use a pronoun except in a sentence that already establishes identity. The [A but B] construction is logical, not formal. A has to exist for the sentence to have logical meaning, but that does not imply that A has to be inside the sentence. In practice, fitting A inside the sentence is often impractical because A can be complex. If A is a proposition that takes more than a sentence to express, the rule would make English incapable of expressing the comparison.
I see a certain industrial revolution flavor to the rule - it makes breaking a text into sort of interchangeable parts easier. It imposes modularity. But a text is not a machine.
----
Whatever
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Post #104,753
6/4/03 8:04:15 AM
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And that is why computers cannot parse arbitrary English.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
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Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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