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New How poor and hungry are most Afghans?
I heard a report that that average salary is around $700 per year.

Now Pakistan has to support refugees they can't afford to feed.

The root of the problem may be that these folks need some help?

Maybe the world can help Pakistan support the refugees? It might be one way to show our care for innocent civilians worldwide, much like we care for our own.
New Aid often backfires
I heard that about 1/3 of all afgan food already is foreign aid (from many countries).

More aid may just make them yet more dependant and make the top brass dislike the interference.

The best way to help them would be to institute a democracy IMO, but that would piss off the 3rd world.

________________
oop.ismad.com
New Point, counterPoint
Good advice.

Notice my emphasis on "world" help.

If anything, this evil act has made us aware that we are indeed a global village.
New Re: Guess you know of 8 aid workers on trial 4 lives in ...

Afghanistan.

These people are accused of attempting to convert muslims to Chistianity. Most Islamic run countries view this very seriously. These people were young aid workers from Christian aid organisations there to help but it seems they also intended to preach. From what I have seen & read some were doing so - had stacks of Afghan language bibles etc:.

They could receive death penalty under Islamic law. *If they were doing this* they are nothing but the worst kind of naive idiots who will now drag in lots of govts & lawyers etc: etc: to get them out of the mess they created.

They are in the way of any attempts the US may want to undertake in pusuance of the anti-terrorist actions. They are in effect hostages except that the crime they are accused of is serious.

An unfortunate side aspect of this is that it is mostly Christian orgs that dispense western aid. So how do we give aid without putting idiots at risk or harming national interests.

Doug Marker
New Aid workers don't have to preach religion ...
... but I get your point.

I guess freedom of religion is not something allowed in the Islam faith?
It gives them the right to kill others that don't agree with their view?!

What kind of religion is that?
What kind of mentality/wisdom is that?

I hope it's only the viewpoint of the crazed fanatics.
New Re: Aid workers don't have to preach religion ...

I don't even pretend to understand that part of Islam but as a kid brought up by one of the tough christian religions I know what would have happened to a muslim who came into our parish & tried to convert our people to Islam (plus I can guess what would have happened to anyone who converted - to be shoore, to be shoore, not a dowt in mee mynd).

Humour aside. One of the difficult things in life is to accept that what we think is normal isn't always that way to others.

Lets not use this topic to start an Islam bashing session, there really are extreme's in most religions and at different places and times each can do strange and wierd things to others.

Cheers

Doug
New Umm until *quite*recently..
The Crusades, the Salem witch trials, the Inquisition, the Heresy trials - the dunkings, burnings, prolonged tortures (and lascivious attentions to young girls, of old men) = armed er 'Crusades' by *armies* of the er 'Righteous'.

Organized religion - is an organization of *men*, having little to do with the subtleties of metaphysical wonderings or exact dogma (selected from the smorg\ufffdsbord available). Organized religion and its 'Beliefs' is THE Problem, in the world, through 2001.

And through today: don't forget the silence from 'our' religious establishment re our home-grown Terrorists with regular Tee Vee hate propaganda, extending over decades.

(Slavery here.. women not voting til 1920.. yada yada)

Please explain any slight differences between 'them' and 'us'.


Ashton
New Re: Umm until *quite*recently..
The Crusades,

Land grab masquerading as religion. More mid-Eastern Christians killed than any other group

the Inquisition

Spanish politics. Killings were politically motivated and not discrimated between religions

don't forget the silence from 'our' religious establishment re our home-grown Terrorists with regular Tee Vee hate propaganda, extending over decades.

Pay attention. There are a fair number of Christian's denouncing most Televangelists. But like in the mideast, the radicals and fanatics get all the press time and those within their religion who criticize then don't get as much audience.

Quit regurgigating the same tired old myths
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New Actually I must agree with Aston...
There's lots of evidence of all religions not tolerating others beliefs...

In addition to the ones he named (off the top of my head) -


Puritans - early America

Mormons - chased out to Utah

Fact is - religions have (and do) chase out 'untolerable' beliefs.

New yes, but...
..trotting out the same old cliches that have nothing to do with religious intolerance doesn't help anything

Mormons - chased out to Utah

That's a good one. The Mormons were not chased out of the east for religious reasons :) There was a lot of religious weirdness going on at that time and the Mormons were just another one in the mix.

It was their criminal activities that got them sent packing
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New But his point about religious intolerance ...
... and twisting of religions to justify brutal and inhuman actions has been with us for a long, long time.

The world now has a chance to take a stance on inhumanity.

Those that decide that humanity is not important to them will suffer the consequences.

Evil will be rooted out and destroyed, if necessary.

The cancer has got to go or it will destroy the host.
New Laughable
The world now has a chance to take a stance on inhumanity.

Those that decide that humanity is not important to them will suffer the consequences.

Evil will be rooted out and destroyed, if necessary.

The cancer has got to go or it will destroy the host.


10,000 years of human social behavior will be overturned in two weeks?

If the Holocaust didn't scar people enough to change, this certainly won't affect us either

Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New I take it you have no hope?
You see no possibility for good to come out of this even though countries that hated each other a week ago are now talking?

Without hope there is only despair.

I'll keep my faith in humanity and keep hoping.

Maybe that's foolish and laughable but there you have it.
New *shrug* Maybe I have no hope
I have no hope that human nature will chnage because of this. 10,000+ years of history don't provide much evidence of human wisdom ever increasing.

You see no possibility for good to come out of this even though countries that hated each other a week ago are now talking?

Who were our allies in WWII? Was not the Soviet Union in that group? Nations can be notoriously pragmatic and finicky about allegiences

Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New We either grow up some day ...
... or our technology and hate will eliminate life as we know it.

I'm hoping we have matured enough not to cause our own destruction.

Are you familiar with the Drake Equation?

Now is the time to show the world how mature the people of the world have become.
And the U.S. has the chance to take the lead if we can show a bit of restraint and compassion.
New I'll agree on probable results, this time too - but
Holocaust is a Red Herring. Hitler's scapegoating of the Jews was barely.. 'religious' - almost arbitrarily, they were the designated recipients of the frustration, poverty and hatred engendered by the Draconian terms of the WW-I surrender. Pure economics as in:

"Look at these-smart-college-guys, owning all that property - selling out the Deutsche Volk - a Zionist plot! to take over the Vaterland" (misplaced my copy of MK, so this is just paraphrase).

So back to the point, which is hardly mooted by 'The Holocaust': *this time* the action is alleged to derive from the heart of Religious Dogma\ufffd. Again - 'alleged'. And especially in 'Christian' Murica, there is woeful ignorance about most other religions everywhere - and 'Christians' are as divided as the balance of civilization about, Which GodsWord Is True(r).

So yes - it IS (this time too) about economics, about ~ the entire Muslim world numbering among the poorest (save for a few OPEC places - where the wealth is divided even more absurdly than our mere 95/5, yet poor people live better there, too).

But: the ignorance about Islam (and all others) brings focus on the religious basis, and not the underlying rationale. I maintain there is an opportunity here. But just a slim one. In the end, think we are much more apt to act precipitately than, patiently, cleverly: wisely.

Maybe a litmus: will there be any *lasting* damage to the ongoing agenda of the Tee Vee preachers - following the excrescences of two of them - next (??) Has anyone learned anything new, about hate encapsulated in religious doggerel, *wherever found* ?? (and maybe about: extreme poverty ==> extreme response, in the face of manic wealth, flaunted)


A.
New Human antisocial behavior...
thrives in an atomosphere of terminal nonjudgementalism.

Time for the West to regrow its backbone. And find that moral compass. Inthane's not *completely* wrong on details, after all. No one is absolutely sinless. It's just that our enemies are far far worse than us.

Say, whatever happened to pre-modernism?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Never made a judgement about our enemies...
...except that they are bad enough that they need excising from this world, before their cancer grows.

We have a sickness as well, but I'm seriously hoping it's not terminal.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New auto de fe against morranos? politikal? NOT!!!
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
New Not quite
"They could receive death penalty under Islamic law. "

As I remember from previous news articles on this, the death penalty does not apply to foreigners/non-believers. But, it can be applied to natives who are found to have done the same thing or who actually do convert to a non-Islam faith. I do not have a link to back this up at the moment but I am positive that is what was originally reported.
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."

--Thomas Jefferson
New I have the same recollection from NPR stories.
New Between a rock and a hard place.
I saw an article (no link, sorry) saying that the common Afghan subject hates the Taliban, and is suffering under their oppression, and would we please not bomb them into oblivion. I'd rather not bomb them into oblivion at any rate, but I do hope they have the sense to get out of the way when we go after the Taliban. Stay away from government/military installations. And don't stand too close to anybody who looks like bin Laden.

Jillions of people, against a few armed thugs. Oh, but the thugs are armed, and the jillions are not. Well, we all should know by now what that's worth.* We were better armed than the thugs, and they got past our defenses. Can the people on the spot get past theirs? It would be nice if they'd at least try. Statistically, it's practically a sure thing that one of them would get close enough to take out an official or two in a suicide attack. Enough of this, and the Taliban are wiped out, the suicide bombers go to heaven, and the people rejoice, and are showered with food aid from the US.

The article gave the impression that the Afghan people are natural victims. The kind of people that bullies like the Taliban just walk all over, because they can. Conflict avoiders. Appeasers. They don't hate us. They're just not willing to stand up for... themselves, let alone us.

* Then there's the Viet Cong against the US. The Germans against (actually, around) the Maginot Line, twice. And going further back, the American Revolutionaries against the Redcoats. Military superiority is way overrated. It's smarts, plus the will to fight, that matter more in the end. No excuses. But those who worship power can never grasp this. If they have power, they treat the weak with contempt. If they lack power, they meekly suffer ill-treatment from the strong. May Anglophone civilization never fall into this fatal fallacy. Nietzsche is dead. Bury him already.



[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New I detect a slight aimed in my direction.
And before I go off, I just want to make sure that it actually was aimed at me, and not just aimed at Nietzche in general.

Am I correct?

Or am I overreacting?
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New No, I didn't have you in mind.
But if you wished to be trolled, I'm always happy to oblige.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Not interested.
Besides, it was a pathetically weak troll, even for you.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New Aha! - troll-bashing.. Trolls Unite against this pipsqueak !
New Re: Sorry ! But naive opinion of the Taliban
There are lots of people in Miami who claim to hate Cuban communism. There have been a lot more in Cuba who still regard Castro & Communism as inspired - so who do you want to believe ???.

The Taliban were the faction that finally united Afghanistan - they are Afghans but have a about 1/3 of their forces who are Pakistanis and other Islamics.

So what is the difference between Pakistan & Afghanistan. Well 150 years ago there was *no* difference - it was Britain who created the border & they did that after suffering one of their greatest military humiliations at the hands of the tribal warriors of those regions. Just over 100 years ago Britain sent an army into what is now Afghanistan in an attempt to set up protection for the northern border of 'India' from the warrior tribesmen. They overthrew the leadership in the Kabul region but the son of the overthrown leader along with a mob of Afghans attacked & killed the British commissioner for the area. Britain had 4,500 troops & approx 12,000 non combatants incl wives & children. In a very ugly situation the British negotiated to remove their garrison & move back to India. Only 1 person is known to have walked out of the Khyber pass to tell the tale. Since then other countries have also learned that these are a tough people.

The Taliban *are* not thugs who invaded Afghanistan, that view is as naive as the British & Russian belief that they could control Afghanistan. The Taliban was one faction fighting as mujihadeen & after the Russians pulled out the people who took over fell on each other (tribal differences). The Taliban faction were mostly younger people who had been at the Talibs or religious schools & their leaders garnered the most support from Afghans & also have managed to unify Afghanistan in a way no other faction did. Of course the fighting disrupted lives but the Taliban brought the most order. They of course introduced Sharia law & we don't like that & neither did *some* Afghans.

I don't like the Taliban & their religious ways any more that I did the Ayatolla of Iran - but Iran is moderating after a number of years of extreme behaviour. In time so will Afghanistan.

The heart of the issue here is if the Taliban are guilty of actively protecting terrorists - if so they have to be encouraged to stop the practice. But if the US wants to attack the Taliban, it needs to have a lot better strategies than those it exercised in Somalia or what the Russians tried in Afghanistan. I am hoping that the US well understands this and will prove creative and maintain the moral high ground. But if the US attitude was rooted in the belief that the Taliban are unpopular thugs then god help those who might have to go there.

Doug Marker
New The Taliban is not our enemy.
Thanks for pointing that out.

Terrorism is the world's enemy.

The distinction is important.
New Yes, they are.
We have declared them such by targetting not only the terrorists...but those who harbor them.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Well, they sure as hell ain't our friends.
And they're not acting very neutral, are they?

What's left?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Clerics: Bin Laden should be asked to leave
In case you haven't heard. (i just read the story on CNN.com)

Unless I'm mistaken, we really don't know that much about the Taliban.
Are all of them murderers and involved in terrorism or is it a small fraction of extremists?

Do you know?
New Economist story. NY Times story.
[link|http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=789267|Here] is an Economist story.

THE Taliban's final edict on the fate of Osama bin Laden was a study in ambiguity. Some 1,000 of Afghanistan's most senior clerics, gathered in a conclave in the capital Kabul, ruled on September 20th that America's most wanted man should be asked to leave their country. In the same breath, they added that any American attack aimed at extracting him by force or punishing Afghanistan for harbouring him would result in a declaration of holy war. Although most observers are still trying to interpret this cryptic formula, the likely upshot is that Mr bin Laden will remain where he is, and America will pursue its plans for war.

The decree was the culimination of a week of dithering. The day before, Mullah Muhammad Omar, the leader of the Taliban and self-styled \ufffdCommander of the Faithful\ufffd, sued for negotiations with America\ufffdonly to be swiftly rebuffed. He and others have suggested that they might hand Mr bin Laden over under various conditions: for a trial in a neutral third country, for example, or before Muslim judges. All the while, they have fulminated against what they perceive as an American quest to destroy Islam.


[link|http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/20/international/20CND-PAK.html|Here] is a NY Times story (registration required).

"To avoid the current tumult and also future similar suspicions," the 700 members of the high council of clerics said in the edict, or fatwa, they had recommended that Mr. bin Laden leave Afghanistan whenever possible.

Mr. bin Laden should find another place to live, said the shura, which met for two days before reaching its decision.

The council said Muslims should start a holy war if attacks were made against the Taliban's fighters, many of whom are only lightly armed.

"If in the time of an American attack, any Muslims, be they Afghans or non-Afghans, cooperate with the infidels, accomplices or spy, that person also is punishable to death like the foreign invaders," the edict said.

[...]

Specialists on Afghanistan have said that his options in the wake of the clerics' recommendation that he leave the country include taking refuge with his own fighters at numerous camps around the cities of Kandahar and Jalalabad, or slipping across the border into remote regions of northwestern Pakistan.

The specialists say that Mr. bin Laden's Arab followers inside Afghanistan alone number at least 3,000, many of them trained fighters, and that they might resist the clerics' decision with force. The most feared of Mr. bin Laden's units, known as the 055 Brigade, has a reputation for brutality that have made them the most feared of all the units fighting under the Taliban banner inside Afghanistan.

If Mr. bin Laden and his top associates, several of whom are also on the F.B.I.'s wanted list, were to slip into Pakistan, tracking them down might be even more difficult than finding them in Afghanistan.

The terrain in parts of Pakistan's Baluchistan and North-West Frontier provinces includes some of the most inaccessible regions in central Asia, an area of deep valleys and high mountains, with deserts to the southwest. For centuries they have been the strongholds of tribal leaders who obey no law but their own. Many of these tribal leaders have links to the Taliban and to Mr. bin Laden.


"...Please don't throw me in that briar patch!"

:-(

Cheers,
Scott.
New I don't know whether to feel insulted or...
be embarrassed for you. I mean, really now.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Re: I suspect the Taliban full well know

that there are terrorist training camps but I wouldn't expect them to admit it.

Personally I don't trust them nor do I believe them but it is my instinct rather than any facts I have. It may well be that they are to be sacrificial pawns in a game of revenge in that they have so few friends (other than some wild relatives in Pakistan).

If the US has chosen to smash the Taliban they don't have to invade to do it but they do want to make sure they wipe them out as failure to do so might invite more problems than a less effectual strike would achieve.

Anyway, forthis aspect of the future I believ the die is cast.

Cheers

Doug
New think again
[link|http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/180901/dlfor97.asp|earl] sound like a helpless bunch?
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
Expand Edited by boxley Sept. 19, 2001, 09:57:22 PM EDT
New Excise the ["] on the end of link?
Guess we have to call a Pashtun a 'conservative' - nothing new in 5000 years. Unlikely to be swayed by 2000 year-old upstarts, with or without helicopters..


A.
     How poor and hungry are most Afghans? - (brettj) - (35)
         Aid often backfires - (tablizer) - (19)
             Point, counterPoint - (brettj) - (18)
                 Re: Guess you know of 8 aid workers on trial 4 lives in ... - (dmarker2) - (17)
                     Aid workers don't have to preach religion ... - (brettj) - (14)
                         Re: Aid workers don't have to preach religion ... - (dmarker2)
                         Umm until *quite*recently.. - (Ashton) - (12)
                             Re: Umm until *quite*recently.. - (Fearless Freep) - (11)
                                 Actually I must agree with Aston... - (Simon_Jester) - (9)
                                     yes, but... - (Fearless Freep) - (8)
                                         But his point about religious intolerance ... - (brettj) - (7)
                                             Laughable - (Fearless Freep) - (6)
                                                 I take it you have no hope? - (brettj) - (2)
                                                     *shrug* Maybe I have no hope - (Fearless Freep) - (1)
                                                         We either grow up some day ... - (brettj)
                                                 I'll agree on probable results, this time too - but - (Ashton)
                                                 Human antisocial behavior... - (marlowe) - (1)
                                                     Never made a judgement about our enemies... - (inthane-chan)
                                 auto de fe against morranos? politikal? NOT!!! -NT - (boxley)
                     Not quite - (Silverlock) - (1)
                         I have the same recollection from NPR stories. -NT - (Another Scott)
         Between a rock and a hard place. - (marlowe) - (14)
             I detect a slight aimed in my direction. - (inthane-chan) - (3)
                 No, I didn't have you in mind. - (marlowe) - (2)
                     Not interested. - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                         Aha! - troll-bashing.. Trolls Unite against this pipsqueak ! -NT - (Ashton)
             Re: Sorry ! But naive opinion of the Taliban - (dmarker2) - (7)
                 The Taliban is not our enemy. - (brettj) - (6)
                     Yes, they are. - (bepatient)
                     Well, they sure as hell ain't our friends. - (marlowe) - (3)
                         Clerics: Bin Laden should be asked to leave - (brettj) - (2)
                             Economist story. NY Times story. - (Another Scott)
                             I don't know whether to feel insulted or... - (marlowe)
                     Re: I suspect the Taliban full well know - (dmarker2)
             think again - (boxley) - (1)
                 Excise the ["] on the end of link? - (Ashton)

I slipped him a fin... on porpoise. I was feeling good. I even dropped a sanddollar in the box for Jerry's squids, for the halibut.
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