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New DeSitter is correct on this one
...but while he and I will go go our respective graves insisting upon the distinction, most of those attending the wakes won't even remember that it was a contentious issue once. This is how language evolves, and much of what is perfectly respectable usage today once gave our grandparents the vapors. Just so, both temperaments have a role to play: those who, unimpeded, would swiftly degrade the mother tongue into an unintelligible and barbarous argot, and those who'd be content, if left unprodded, for the language to stagnate and die. We rely on the former to keep English current and on the latter to keep it comprehensible within a man's lifetime.

cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New OK. So, I check my Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.
Tenth Edition.

further (adv) - 1. farther

farther (adv) - 1. at or to a greater distance or more advanced point

However, under usage it says:
Further and farther have been used more or less interchangeably throughout most of their history, but currently they are showing signs of diverging. As adverbs they continue to be used interchangeably whenever spatial, temporal, or metaphorical distance is involved. But when there is no notion of distance, further is used <our techniques can be further refined>. Further is also used as a sentence modifier <further, the workshop participants were scarcely optimistic - L. B. Mayhew>, but farther is not. A polarizing process appears to be taking place in their adjective use. Farther is taking over the meaning of distance <the farther shore> and further the meaning of addition <needed no further invitation>.
{edit}Fix my typos. Nothing like misspelling stuff from dictionary. :)
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Expand Edited by a6l6e6x April 7, 2003, 11:28:25 PM EDT
New Although the moon is smaller than the Earth,
it is farther away.
New the serendipitous LRPD for this post,
when first I checked it, was "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away..."

Odd, no?

cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New Nicely said.
So where does L'acadamie Francaise fall on your continuum?

(I know where it falls on mine...)
jb4
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
Rich Cook
New Re: Nicely said.
So where does L'acadamie Francaise fall on your continuum? --on the side of reaction, clearly, and as I indicated, I haven't a problem with that. Of course, the French have their own cultural issues, and a different attitude toward linguistic "purity." English, after all, has been a cheerful mongrel of a language ever since it re-emerged from several generations spent below the salt, grammatically slimmed down and itself substantially gallicized, during the Hundred Years' War. Indeed, now I think on it, it's odd to consider how the French are considered such libertines, in the popular imagination, in matters of the flesh, contrasted to our own Puritan tradition, whereas when it comes to the company they keep it is the French language that's historically strait-laced, whereas English, really, is a bit of a slut...

cordially,

[edit: duplicate English word]
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Expand Edited by rcareaga April 8, 2003, 08:07:07 PM EDT
New It seems that the French are the cleaner and still have more
fun.

Keeping the language pure, inventing the bidet so that another kind of purity augments a fact known to the French long before it ever surfaced here, in the Indian-slaughtering Territories..

the most erotic part of the body is











the mind.


The sterilized Puritans OTOH, being obsessed with dirt == almost anything a human animal does: focussed upon stamping-out therefore, anything pleasurable. Mistaking cleanliness for Gawdliness was only one of a series of genetic misadventures.. culminating in a Jerry Foulwell AND a Pat Robertson within the same century. Our group therefore must contain - a terminal recessive gene.

(Only Muricans can dub the slattern doomed, while trying to get her phone number, then brag - but spit in her face in public - for being immoral, all by herself. Then burn her - laughing all the while. We call this 'religion' because no one can spell sanctimony, let alone 'hypocritical barbarian'.)

cf Foulwell, J. Robertson, P. Lott, T. and a distinctly unHeavenly host of clones.



Imagine.. IF - our system spreads - -
Le Fran\ufffdais dansera sur nos tombes lugubrious
New My point on all this is...
...that while I want there to be some semblance of a level of Grammatik in a language (even in a "slut" like English...again, nicely said), I believe that attempts to freeze a language at a fixed period of time is a fool's errand. Note that there hasen't been a dearth of fools that have wanted to take that errand on (Hitler in the 1930's, L'Academie Francaise currently, China at various times in it long and checkered history). Like everything else, if a language doesn't evolve with the times, it dies; it is supreme arrogance to even consider that a language has a mechanism to express every experience (and thing, for that matter) that its speakers will ever need to express.

That said, I find myself increasingly irritated with some of the bastardation of English that is going on. My two all time favorites:

"A apple" (Using "a" instead of "an" preceding a word that starts with a vowel).

"There is some..." (Using a singluar verb as the predicate for a plural subject).


I could care less about the further/farther debate (although I believe a literate person should be able to tell the difference).

[Edit: changed the "dearth of fools" sentence to make something resembling sense...]
jb4
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
Rich Cook
Expand Edited by jb4 April 11, 2003, 05:35:52 PM EDT
New Another for you, with my complements.
"The point is is that..."

Grrr!

I don't think I can hear any TV or radio political commentary/debate without that being mentioned once.

Cheers,
Scott.
New fools' errands
Indeed, the only effectively frozen language I can think of offhand is Latin (we used to call it a "dead" language, which puzzled me when I was growing up), although there are probably analogues in other cultures. In the "natural" state of humanity--before, that is, mechanized travel and mass media, particularly radio onward--languages tended to differentiate and finally speciate according to geography, and those centrifugal forces still exist, as I was reminded while attempting to chat up an Australian in Amsterdam a few years back. Particularly with television and films we see an opposite, homogenizing tendency with respect to the differentiation of language over distance, although these technologies may also serve to accelerate the development (or devolution, if you're feeling jaundiced) of language over time. The brief, explosive vogue a couple of decades back of the "Valley Girl" argot could be considered to demonstrate both those premises.

The goal of freezing language is perhaps foolish; certainly unattainable. The attempt, however, might be worth while--serving, as I said, to retard its headlong rush into incomprehensibility for anyone not in the first blush of youth.

I don't really get upset when further and farther are commingled in popular use (I suspect that "farther" will be pushed out over time), but I bristle at the (exclusively written) confusion over its and it's, and as for "lie" and "lay" (as in "I think I'll go lay down")...well, if necessary I'll form bands of partisans in the hills, all of us in civilian clothing and with plenty of grenade launchers to go around, before I yield on that one.

militantly,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New Or in the immortal words of Captain Kirk
(suitably er altered to suit the occasion)
-Hey..! poetic licentiousness; that's involuntary wordslaughter.

Yes, Spock: we Are language murderers!
But... each day I can say..
Today!
[I will not dither a dipthong.. pontificate with a preterite.. make an absurd surd..]
Today I-Will-not-murder language!!



Live Long and Prosper
     Grammar error in NYT headline? - (deSitter) - (20)
         Distinction without a difference, I think. -NT - (a6l6e6x) - (13)
             Hey, I think DRL is on to something here - subtle but there - (dmarker) - (1)
                 Farther is upperclass fer yer Da -NT - (boxley)
             DeSitter is correct on this one - (rcareaga) - (10)
                 OK. So, I check my Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary. - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                     Although the moon is smaller than the Earth, - (Ashton) - (1)
                         the serendipitous LRPD for this post, - (rcareaga)
                 Nicely said. - (jb4) - (6)
                     Re: Nicely said. - (rcareaga) - (5)
                         It seems that the French are the cleaner and still have more - (Ashton)
                         My point on all this is... - (jb4) - (3)
                             Another for you, with my complements. - (Another Scott)
                             fools' errands - (rcareaga) - (1)
                                 Or in the immortal words of Captain Kirk - (Ashton)
         Secret Message Encoding? - (andread) - (5)
             The flick "A Beautiful Mind" has a bit of that too... -NT - (Another Scott)
             Now that you've stumbled onto the nature of Ashton's posts.. - (imric) - (3)
                 OT: "Omniscient LRPD" more sinister than previously thought? (new thread) - (CRConrad)
                 Re: Now that you've steganographed - (Ashton) - (1)
                     *chuckle* -NT - (imric)

Most of our entire ruling junta.
186 ms