Post #9,382
9/16/01 4:18:01 PM
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I've got to wonder
Is there an actual Muslim leader that other Muslims will listen to; that remembers the actual teachings of Islam? I've heard a lot on the news to remind us (Americans) that the Islamic religion is very much against the types of violence perpetrated by bin Ladin, but the only messages I hear about here of any kind of "Muslim leader" in the Middle East to the Muslims in that area are the words from bin Ladin that "It is the job of Muslims to kill all Americans Military and Civilian and their supporters". I really hope that isn't the only message they're hearing, or I'm afraid many of them might start to believe it.
Now I admit I haven't been able to catch all the news about this, so I may have missed it. Anybody hear of such a message (contrary to bin Ladin's) being given from somebody respected enough to count amongst all Muslims?
~~~)-Steven----
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Post #9,390
9/16/01 5:23:48 PM
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Its a matter..
Of who you listen to.
The Bible is bloody and gruesome. Read it sometime. Read about slaughtering women/children being sanctioned.
[link|http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Deuteronomy+7:2|Deuteronomy 7:](others same link)
2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.[1] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
[2] The Hebrew term refers to the irrevocable giving over of things or persons to the LORD, often by totally destroying them; also in verse 26.
Deuteronomy 20:
13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.
14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.
Numbers 31
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Etc. etc. That's a fast grab.
Take those, and you can make a decent "argument" for taking all the virgin women, and killing the rest. Shooting abortion doctors is sanctioned by some christian leaders.
Etc.
So now you get back to who's reading what. The Bible and Koran are of similar vintage, and have, as I understand it, similar passages.
I saw a writing where they were talking about the constant wars have meant that a lot of children were raised from birth with these messages (Think Hitler Youth for a "european" analog).
Do you follow a religion? If so, why that one, and not the one down the street? Why not the one across town?
Addison
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Post #9,403
9/16/01 8:45:00 PM
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Don't like it
Thanks for the link.
As a recovering Jew, I am a member of a synagogue
as a heritage touchpoint for my kids. On the other
hand, I hopefully instill enough cynical disbelief
to counterbalance any blind faith.
As proof of this dichotomy, my 12 year old son just
refused to be Bar Mitzvahed. He already learned
the prayers and his passage, but refused to go up
and lie to everyone. Makes me proud.
INFURIATES my wife, who isn't even Jewish, but is a
pre-school teacher at the synagogue, and has to deal
with all the back stabbing gossip. Oh well.
Now I have to start going to services with my 9
year old daughter, and possibly go through the
whole build up of a Bat Mitzvah only to abandon it.
Oh well. As long as it is truly a decision and not
a parental manipulation, I won't mind either way.
Of course, I did choose this particular synagogue because
I really admired the rabbi, who later killed his wife.
On the other hand, who translated this? I always wanted
to learned Hebrew (really learn, not just mouth it) to
be able to read this stuff in the original. Not that
it would matter much, since from my limited exposure to
bible history, these texts were written as parts of
committees and had to be approved by the ruling class,
who weren't even Jewish.
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Post #9,405
9/16/01 9:20:33 PM
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Another question.
On the other hand, who translated this?
That's a doggoned good question.
Along with "Who wrote it?"
my 12 year old son just refused to be Bar Mitzvahed. He already learned
the prayers and his passage, but refused to go up and lie to everyone. Makes me proud.
Fill me in. Lie about what? (We didn't have a lot of Jews around when I was growing up. Ok, none. :))
Thanks,
Addison
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Post #9,407
9/16/01 9:47:29 PM
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Re: Catholics have a related process ...
Called 1st communion & passing the catechism.
I could understand someone saying the same about the catechism. I think Catholic kids go through their process at a younger age (when still far to young to truly understand what they are stating & claiming).
15 was a good age for processing youngsters into young men, certainly for 1000s of years in the classic tribal living, some may think it a bit young in today's rather more complex world.
As for the catechism, I don't think too many catholics take it quite as seriously these days.
Doug Marker
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Post #9,408
9/16/01 9:53:05 PM
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Many questions
It's been a while. My understanding is that the various
books of the "Old Testament" were written by a whole
bunch if different groups of rabbis. They were rewritten
many times, and had to go through an approval process
that included the Pope. So while it interests me, I
certainly don't ascribe any divinity to it.
Of course, being one of the "Chosen People", to me any
followers of any newer religions are just some newage
cult mindless zombies. (And if you don't see the
humor/sarcasm here, you now realize why I usually don't
engage in these conversations.)
As far as 'lie' I meant professing any belief that he
didn't feel, which I consider courageous considering
the pressure he is under to 'conform'.
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Post #9,413
9/16/01 11:04:58 PM
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Approval by the Pope? What?
The current Christian scripture was set by the Council of Nicea, in something like 300 AD. At that time, the catholic church had nothing llke the structure it has today. There was no supposed infallable pope at the time; for that matter, the council was convened by Constantine.
And if you believe any Jew would accept the authority of a Christian pope over their holy writings, you're crazy.
*My* understanding is that scholars think some of the Old Testament books were written by several people, and others by one, and some may have been pre-dated to have the appearance of authenticity.
Rest in peace, Jeremy, Mark, Thomas, and whoever else who helped overpower the hijackers on Flight 93.
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Post #9,414
9/16/01 11:25:47 PM
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Pope and the Old Testament
It's been a while. My understanding is that the various books of the "Old Testament" were written by a whole bunch if different groups of rabbis. They were rewritten many times, and had to go through an approval process that included the Pope. So while it interests me, I certainly don't ascribe any divinity to it. Never heard that one before. For the record, the Jewish canon was codified somewhere around 90AD, some 200 to 300 years prior to Constantine, and definitely prior to Christianity becoming a world force. One of the disagreements with Christianity was the difference over the Septuagint, which was the Greek translation. For one thing, the Septuagint had some 72 books, as opposed to the 66 books of the Jewish canon. This disagreement was to become an issue in the Reformation as the Protestants embraced the 66 books as being the Old Testament, while the Catholics went with 72 books (IIRC, the Orthodox Christian bible OT has 76).
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Post #9,424
9/17/01 6:36:21 AM
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Re: Pope and the Old Testament
Here's one link which says a bit about
various "rewrites" and the timing involved.
[link|http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm|http://www.newadven...n/03267a.htm]
I have NO idea of the validity. I try not to
get into these types of discussions because the
bottom line is that it almost always involves:
"My passionate ignorance is more powerful than your
indifferent ignorance" arguments. I acknowledge my
ignorance, and my inability to judge. How do I even
know the Torah that I see today is the same as the
original? And WHICH original?
One key thing to remember is history is written by
the winners, and we have no time machines to go
look.
And as Addison pointed out, there is a lot to abhor
no matter who wrote it or when.
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Post #9,394
9/16/01 6:07:45 PM
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Very good point.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
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Post #9,409
9/16/01 9:55:17 PM
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well when I was in chi in may a fellow trainee was Saudi
and a muslim and we spent many hours with an fundamentalist discussing Islam, etc. His religion is a religion of peace where men and women of all color and races are welcomed equally. I cannot match his faith with bin ladens, obviously we need a fatwa against these acts and a salomin rushdie (the author) fatwa against bin laden by a respected cleric. If we were smart we would ask an Iranian Cleric to do this for us. This gives us a clear shot at him.
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
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Post #9,419
9/17/01 1:37:06 AM
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Interesting thought, that last.
As the Christian churches never seem to find guts to issue a fatwah against our local Fundamentalist terrorists - recently heard from - there must indeed be many smart clerics. One might realize this as the perhaps simplest means of defusing a worldwide confusion of bin Laden with -- any actual religion, at all.
Such a simple act might save thousands of lives, though it won't bring anyone back.
A.
I, a Reverend of the Universal Life Church, hereby issue a Habeas Corpus on the Revs. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.
9/16/01
Good til cancelled.
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Post #9,425
9/17/01 8:56:19 AM
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Excommunication is a non-violent fatwa
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Post #9,557
9/17/01 10:12:32 PM
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the penalties for heresy are a tad hot^h^harsher
It is logical that by his actions he has placed Islam in danger and did this by doing acts specifically prohibited by the Koran. Especially profitting by selling short on Mon. That is a stoning offence. But again how many Muslim Clerics are in the State Department?
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
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Post #9,427
9/17/01 9:04:00 AM
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Very good points
I was trying to post this Friday but we had a gateway "problem" and then I had to leave.
Have *they* become what they despise?
I've been reading some of the US-had-it-coming stuff and how the US is led by a bunch of sneaky rich bastards who hypocritically twist an attractive ideology to manipulate some and cynically sacrifice others whom they deem inferior for their own benefit while sanctioning attacks on innocents. And I thought "isn't this just what these terrorist movement folks have reduced themselves to?". Maybe the prominent Muslim religious leaders worldwide could strongly condemn the whole thing as contrary to Islam? Please?
Giovanni
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