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New I know what happened.
But, what was the source of the regional instability?

"In June 1982 Israel again invaded Lebanon, and it used aerial bombardment to destroy entire camps of Palestinian Arab refugees, By these means Israel killed 20,000 persons, mostly civilians...Israel claimed self-defense for its invasion, but the lack of PLO attacks into Israel during the previous year made that claim dubious...The [UN] Security Council demanded 'that Israel withdraw all its military forces forthwith and unconditionally to the internationally recognized boundaries of Lebanon'...
"The UN Human Rights Commission, using the Geneva Convention's provision that certain violations of humanitarian law are 'grave breaches' meriting criminal punishment for perpetrators, found a number of Israel's practices during the uprising [the intifada] to constitute 'war crimes.' It included physical and psychological torture of Palestinian detainees and their subjection to improper and inhuman treatment; the imposition of collective punishment on towns, villages and camps; the administrative detention of thousands of Palestinians; the expulsion of Palestinian citizens; the confiscation of Palestinian property; and the raiding and demolition of Palestinian houses."
-- John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Expand Edited by a6l6e6x March 28, 2003, 05:11:13 PM EST
New It happened when the PLO tried to overthrow King Hussein in
Jordan and he started massacreing them wholesale. Arafat fled to lebanon and took a beautiful country, the paris of the med and turned it into a shithole. Arafat alone is responsible for lebanon's situation today. If the PLO had not gone there lebanon would still be the flower of the med as well as a good ally of the west.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
New Subject has changed, and agree with what you said.
But why are there Palestinian refugees and who has robbed and denied Palestinians their ancestral home?

Let's face it, Israel is a failed human experiment of the worst kind. The world, and especially the US, is paying for it still.
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Expand Edited by a6l6e6x March 28, 2003, 05:38:39 PM EST
New Re: Subject has changed, and agree with what you said.
That's what happens when you're told to do something, and don't follow through.
New good question Israel has absorbed and is continuing
to absord their refugees amother 20k from ethiopia. Why cannot the arabs do the same?
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
New Willing immigrant vs. ethnic cleansing.
Israel is trying to "bulk up" and Ethiopian Jews are seeking a better life. Palestinians were robbed of their land. Where is the justice of it?
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
New the jews of syria, iran, lebanon egypt etc is bulking up
and russia the inventor of the word pogrom is bulking up. Justice is balance, we provided for ours why do the palestinians not provide for their own. So you say the jews must also provide for the palestinians by giving them israel, that is just. Just a way to kill all the jews in the neighborhood.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
New The Jews did not come to Palestine in peace.
Look up the Deir Yassin Massacre of Palestinians by Jewish soldiers:
"For the entire day of April 9, 1948, Irgun and LEHI soldiers carried out the slaughter in a cold and premeditated fashion... The attackers 'lined men, women and children up against the walls and shot them,'... The ruthlessness of the attack on Deir Yassin shocked Jewish and world opinion alike, drove fear and panic into the Arab population, and led to the flight of unarmed civilians from their homes all over the country."
-- Israeli author, Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel."

This very village of Arabs wanted to live in peace. They had nothing to do with the abuse the Jews of Europe suffered. Really, not too different from the extermination of native Americans who were inconvenient to the Europeans. That one you understand.

So who "poised the well"?

You recall the link to 25 centuries of prosperous life of Jews in Baghdad?
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
New gee the word armed militants is missing from that account
were palestinians massacred in Deir Yassin. Were Jews massacred in Hebron yes. Was Deir Yassin on a height overlooking man supply routes to Jerusalem yes was fire directed on Israeli troops from there yes. Was this just after WW2 yes did babi yar happen yes [link|http://members.aol.com/TeacherNet/Holocaust.html#BabiYar|http://members.aol.c...aust.html#BabiYar] yes. Did the Arabs call for the death of all jews, yes. Do they still do so? yes. Was what happened at hebron and Deir Yassin right no. So that one act determines that all jews should be killed forever in palestine? Also no. I know you are anti sharon et al but peace cannot be made until both sides acknowledge the right for the other side to exists as an independent fully sovreign state. The Palestinians are unwilling to do so at this time, they call for sadaam to exterminate Israel. Syria calls for the extermination of Israel. Now the Israelis are a tad unwilling to be exterminated at this time. They are not quite PC enough to call for it yet. So a conumdrum if only one side is willing to be exterminated what can they not do to the callers of such extermination? revisit apache and sitting bull with machine guns.
thanx.
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
New Sorry Box, as pro Israeli as I am (& my ancestors ;-) - I ..

Agree fully with Alex's point re Dier Yassin. This single attack triggered the panic and mass flight of the ancestors of the three main refugee camps in Lebanon & the Jews (along with Irgun commander & chief tactitian Begin) knew damned well the effect it would produce.

I am happy to debate Dier Yassin with you. It was one of the truly evil Israeli deeds of the fight for independance.

Doug Bar Makar


Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003


Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
New No armed militants.
[link|http://www.deiryassin.org/mas.html|Deir Yassin] had a peaceful reputation and was even said by a Jewish newspaper to have driven out some Arab militants.
o o o
Of about 144 houses, 10 were dynamited. The cemetery was later bulldozed and, like hundreds of other Palestinian villages to follow, Deir Yassin was wiped off the map. By September, Orthodox Jewish immigrants from Poland, Rumania, and Slovakia were settled there over the objections of Martin Buber, Cecil Roth and other Jewish leaders, who believed that the site of the massacre should be left uninhabited. The center of the village was renamed Givat Shaul Bet.
Bulldozing is a tradition, eh?

And Deir Yassin was not unique:
"By 1948, the Jew was not only able to 'defend himself' but to commit massive atrocities as well. Indeed, according to the former director of the Israeli army archives, 'in almost every village occupied by us during the War of Independence, acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes'... Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that 'every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.'"
Norman Finkelstein, "Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict."
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
New Objective sources????
Give me a break, Deir Yassin was a battle that got out of hand, the rest is pure fiction, Israel did not massacre Arabs after every battle, in fact, many leaders practically begged the Arabs to stay. If you are right, why didn't Isael chase out all the Arabs? There is a very significant Arab population in Israel with representation in Parliament. Why in 1967, didn't Israel throw the Arabs out of the West Bank and Gaza? The fact is that Israel has always tried to live in peace, the Arabs have not.

The way the Iraqis are fighting is nothing new, suicide bombers, hiding behind civilians, using mosques and hospitals to store ammunition and troops, these are all tactics used in the 1930's.
New So, Norman Finkelstein, one of your own, lies?
Another link on [link|http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m2082/2_63/72435149/print.jhtml|Deir Yassin].
The village was an Arab Muslim stonecutter community of about 750 people, located a few kilometers east of Kastel on a rocky hillside west of Jerusalem and two kilometers south of the Tel-Aviv highway. Lying inside the United Nations' proposed Jerusalem international zone, its terraced stone houses descended eastward to meet a quarry-studded pathway from Jewish Jerusalem's western suburb, Givat Shaul.(9)

Goldshmidt, raised in that suburb, had been sworn by his father to avenge armed attacks emanating from Deir Yassin against Givat Shaul during Arab-Jewish-British strife of the 1920s and 1930s. But during the 1948 conflict, Deir Yassin was studiously honoring a Haganah-sponsored agreement to refrain from hostilities with neighboring Jewish areas in exchange for protection from Jewish attack. One Lehi member, David Siton, protested that hitting a nonhostile village might endanger western Jerusalem. A Lehi reconnaissance appears to have confirmed the village's nonhostility. And although Irgun district commander Mordechai Raanan insisted Deir Yassin was part of an Arab logistical route to Kastel, he had to concede after another reconnaissance that the town appeared docile.(10)

In fact, the town had nurtured its quietness vigilantly, training guards for watch patrols and carefully maintaining contacts with both sides. Villagers provided intelligence to the Haganah and even cooperated while the Haganah took the strategic Sharafa ridge between Deir Yassin and the nearby ALA base at Ein Kerem. Deir Yassin repeatedly repelled, once with reported loss of life, ALA attempts to infiltrate troops into Deir Yassin. Haganah intelligence confirmed in a secret report after Deir Yassin's capture that the town had stayed "faithful allies of the western [Jerusalem] sector."(11) Yona Ben-Sasson, Haganah commander in Givat Shaul, later recalled that "there was not even one [hostile] incident between Deir Yassin and the Jews,"(12) despite increasing Arab military activity in the vacinity.
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
New Believe it or not, yes
There is a whole group of post Zionist revisionist historians, who like others on the extreme left all over the West, try to find fault with Israel. From their perspective, Israel, the US, the whole West, is the cause of all problems.

I know that you might find this hard to believe (after all you believe that the Jews are setting policy for the US) but Jews are not monolithic at all in their views. In fact, there are many prominent Jews who oppose the war in Iarq.
Expand Edited by bluke March 31, 2003, 10:00:48 AM EST
New It is the fact that Israeli Jews are not monolithic
that gives me any hope that Israel can survive in the long term. Unfortunately, it is the morally bankrupt part of Israeli society that is in control at present.
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
     Hell, might as well do Syria while in the neighborhood - (rcareaga) - (33)
         awww...come on - (cybermace5)
         And Iran, too. - (mmoffitt) - (7)
             Re: And Iran, too. - (cybermace5) - (6)
                 So the "Anti-Christ" is a good guy? - (mmoffitt) - (5)
                     That's how he's supposed to get into power. -NT - (cybermace5) - (3)
                         Not to worry - (Ashton) - (2)
                             Re: Not to worry - (cybermace5) - (1)
                                 Not everyone: but rife in the Ruling Cabal du jour. Read. -NT - (Ashton)
                     GACK! It's too early for this. YOU GOT ME! - (mmoffitt)
         gives us an excuse to rollup the bekaa valley in any case - (boxley) - (21)
             And those terrorist were as much danger to us as the IRA. -NT - (a6l6e6x) - (20)
                 tell that to the 200+ marines they killed -NT - (boxley) - (19)
                     Who were defending Israel not US. -NT - (a6l6e6x) - (18)
                         Israel is a tad south of beirut -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                             Israeli interests then. -NT - (a6l6e6x)
                         have a link - (boxley) - (15)
                             I know what happened. - (a6l6e6x) - (14)
                                 It happened when the PLO tried to overthrow King Hussein in - (boxley) - (13)
                                     Subject has changed, and agree with what you said. - (a6l6e6x) - (12)
                                         Re: Subject has changed, and agree with what you said. - (cybermace5)
                                         good question Israel has absorbed and is continuing - (boxley) - (10)
                                             Willing immigrant vs. ethnic cleansing. - (a6l6e6x) - (9)
                                                 the jews of syria, iran, lebanon egypt etc is bulking up - (boxley) - (8)
                                                     The Jews did not come to Palestine in peace. - (a6l6e6x) - (7)
                                                         gee the word armed militants is missing from that account - (boxley) - (6)
                                                             Sorry Box, as pro Israeli as I am (& my ancestors ;-) - I .. - (dmarker)
                                                             No armed militants. - (a6l6e6x) - (4)
                                                                 Objective sources???? - (bluke) - (3)
                                                                     So, Norman Finkelstein, one of your own, lies? - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                                                                         Believe it or not, yes - (bluke) - (1)
                                                                             It is the fact that Israeli Jews are not monolithic - (a6l6e6x)
         And get a much more direct path to Iraq then w/Turkey! :) - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
             Still gonna need laborers cheaper than pakistanis -NT - (boxley)

And would I trow dis lit match in the oven if my friend Lucky were in there?
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