Post #9,104
9/14/01 12:41:47 PM
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Haven't been there
Is it any worse then the anti-American sentiment usually thrown around IWETHEY?
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #9,108
9/14/01 12:50:56 PM
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Just wanted people to know...
that my article "We are reaping what we sowed" was not meant to be anti-U.S. - it was meant as introspection in a time of crisis.
I believe that this country has, is, and will continue to do great things - but I also believe it's time for a major moral adjustment.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #9,110
9/14/01 12:56:52 PM
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Not you, not now
But there are others around here that fairly regularly rip the US and the American people and have been doing so for quite a long time and it's been pretty depressing to watch
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #9,164
9/14/01 4:01:29 PM
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At this point my present overwhelming reaction
to the Israelis, Arabs, Palestinians, Afghans, and all other Middle Easterners, militant and otherwise, is total and complete EXASPERATION!
Can't you knuckleheads get together and work out some kind of arrangement?
We Americans are FUCKING TIRED of playing SCHOOLMARM and REFEREE to your fucked up zealotry and bickering. Get a grip and work something out soon or we will work it out for you.
Frankly, converting the "Holy Land" to a "Holey Land" has a certain appeal. Play nice or game over.
I'd kind of like the UN to drag the lot of them to a table, put a nuke to their collective heads and force them to submit to binding arbitration.
I mean, they've only been fighting for, what, a couple THOUSAND years.
Time to grow up I think.
This is just my current reaction, standby for a new reaction every 30 minutes.
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Post #9,187
9/14/01 5:43:07 PM
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If they were capable of getting a grip...
surely they would have done so millennia ago?
Trying to keep them in line is not a real solution. They need behavior mod, plus psychotherapy, plus civics classes. We must forcibly liberate them from their dysfunctional ways. Just as we forcibly ended Nazism in the 1940's, so must we do with the various components that add up to the terrorist mentality.
And if the multiculturalists don't like it, f*** `em.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,112
9/14/01 1:02:08 PM
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I didn't think you were over the line.
You were skirting it, but that's all right, even necessary. Diversity of opinion, loyal opposition, due diligence, reality check and all that.
These people aren't just over the line. They're beyond recall. It's almost like a mental illness. There's a guy calling himself ucblockhead who's just barely this side of full blown sociopathy. You can't be a reality check if you're utterly divorced from reality. And there's nothing loyal about this kind of opposition.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,121
9/14/01 1:26:02 PM
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Not a problem...
...you display the virtues that I think are needed more - humility and reason.
Personally, I lean towards a pacifistic viewpoint. I feel like Alex in Clockwork Orange where I get sick to my stomach when I see violence committed, or when I have thoughts of anger. Needless to say, my body is totally out of whack this week.
There is one other virtue that I'd like to see more of. It's a virtue that is even more powerful than love. Specifically, hope. Hope is what pulls us out of fear and despair. Wish I'd see more of that attribute than the chest-thumping and finger-pointing that seems to be rampant.
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Post #9,149
9/14/01 3:23:12 PM
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Yo, Alex! Moi droogie, are you aware of the message
of that particular book? It is about free will and brainwashing. The point of the Ludoviko technique is that it is forced. Is Alex actually "good" if he doesn't make the choice to be good? By the by, whether you are aware of it or not, by the end of the book you have a working knowledge of about 150 Russian words (again, Burgess' not so subtle explanation by example of how brainwashing works...) Not to be too obtuse, but if you feel like Alex, then are you saying that your pacifism is "forced"? Or are you merely saying that you have been brainwashed?
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
"Putting the fun back into funatic"
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Post #9,157
9/14/01 3:44:51 PM
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In my case...
...the pacifism is not forced by external actors, so much as a combination of experience, genetics, and a bit of choice. Personally, I wish everyone was sickened by violence and hatred, but I agree with the thrust of the book that it's not something that can forced upon an individual.
Been years since I've viddied the book, though I did resee the movie not long ago. Kubrick did a good job with the movie, but I do think that it made the violence a bit too seductive in its brightness - almost like it went too far into Alex's perception.
Can't say that I've been forced or braiwashed... but it's possible that they did such a thorough job that I have no way to recollect my processing. :-)
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Post #9,176
9/14/01 4:54:41 PM
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Understood...
Between that book/movie, Slaughterhouse Five, and The World According to Garp - we've pretty much covered my psyche as well. (Gotta throw in strong doses of Michener and Crichton for entertainment value....) You are absolutely correct that there will be a time for pacifism and reflection, there must. Unfortunately, this will have to wait. No matter what you (or I) make of the Christian bible, there is a bit of wisdom there that is worth the read, even if the goal is not to become Christian.
I guess that to the books I've listed up top, I might have to add Ecclesiastes 3:1 from the Old Testament.
"
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven:
a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away,
a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak,
a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace."
As sick as this may sound, I'm slightly comforted by the idea that there is a time for war... and a time for peace. We're just gonna have to get through the time for war.
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
"Putting the fun back into funatic"
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Post #9,185
9/14/01 5:36:18 PM
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No, Alex is not actually good.
But he's no longer a menace to society.
It's rather a nasty thing to do to someone. But then, so is life imprisonment. So is the death penalty, by any method. It's strictly a question of what's the lesser evil.
And the fact is, ultimately, our humble narrator brought it on himself.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,109
9/14/01 12:53:08 PM
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Yes, much worse.
It's vastly more prevalent. Here, we've got a couple of nutcases. Nothing we can't handle. There, they practically own the place.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,135
9/14/01 2:01:32 PM
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Much worse
There's been alot of Bush bashing here at a time when Americans should be rallying around him.
Others have been suggesting that our misguided policies of the past have seeded the hatred abroad that has lead to our current dilema.
But in these are legitimate topics for discussion. And in the US you can openly question and complain about our government. It's a necessary part of our Freedom.
But the author K5 article in question effectively says that we have gotten our just desserts because our government, our country, is evil (he actually used that word). This is just too much. And, ironically, this comes from a Brit, who, if we Americans hadn't stepped up to the plate, would probably be speaking German or Russian today.
Ray
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