As to zero..

Post #7,439 by Ashton 9/1/01 4:28:00 AM Reply	As to zero.. The Mayans got it.. long before us backward folk managed it. (But they were smart enough to reserve wheels for.. toys for their children! Maybe realized what could happen if they started er "making everything efficient with machines" ?) Natch - we don't really know why that wheel choice, but they certainly understood the principle. And their geography was mountainous, so - ?
Post #7,857 by boxley 9/6/01 4:11:27 PM Reply	wheel principle wheels needed a few good things to work. Large draught animals, hardwoods, iron rims or the weight+shock of bad roads and softwood would shatter the wheel. To scale up the toys would have been ineficient with the materials at hand. Look at the 49ers and the oregon trail. Try to take heavy wagons with no well thought out load balancing plan. Contrast that to the mule skinners on the santa fe trail. Good load management and an understanding of horsepower. thanx, bill Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves. Chuck Palahniuk
Post #7,894 by wharris2 9/6/01 11:32:15 PM Reply	I think you're overstating it Surely they had some knowledge of how to harden wheels and woods? And you don't need large draught animals to use wheels; humans can pull carts pretty well. They've done pretty good in Asia with human cart-pullers (aka rikshahs if I could spell). On the other hand, weren't there two empires? One in modern Mexico, and the other in South America? Whatever, the defeat of an empire by a handful of Spaniards has got to be one of the mind-boggling episodes in history. French Zombies are zapping me with lasers!
Post #7,943 by inthane-chan 9/7/01 3:11:51 PM Reply	Four wheels, two empires, and one conqueror. As far as wheels go in Central and South America, they didn't catch on mainly due to the terrain. A good portion of the Aztec, Inca, and Mayan civilizations were up high in mountainous terrain - and they didn't have hard metals either. IIRC, they didn't even have copperworking down to an art, which is why they used obsidian-edged clubs. This made wheels quite impractical, and instead they used pack dogs and slaves to carry goods. There were actually three empires, but only two when the Spaniards came calling - the Mayan empire had collapsed inward before they got there. (Or was it the Inca? I don't remember.) The Aztecs were actually winning the fight - despite firearms, real armor, and superior weaponry, the sheer numbers of the Aztecs were overwhelming the Spanish forces. Cortez made a push for the leader of the Aztecs (I don't remember his name) and managed to kill him. The thing is, the Aztecs revered him as a living God. If you can kill God, who wants to fight you? "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #7,960 by mhuber 9/7/01 5:07:01 PM Reply	No, Montezuma was killed by his own Montezuma more or less surrendered to Cortez because he saw him as Quetzalcoatl, and the troops didn't. Cortez paraded him as a prisoner in an attempt to get the troops to join him in surrender, but the troops stoned him instead. The injuries were such that the Spanish expected him to survive, but apparently he had lost the will to live. The empire had made many, many enemies, so Cortez had a good many local allies when he attacked Tenochtitlan. Cortez was very, very good at his job. Partly because he was much less of an sadistic asshole than your average Conquistador (not a major compliment). Montezuma was not a very good Emperor, and the empire had grown soft from being on top too long. Still, it was rather a major upset if you look at it in strictly secular terms. On the other hand, when a pissed-off major deity shows up to destroy his people, all bets are off. And Cortez (though he certainly didn't think so) was the Plumed Serpent, returning as predicted (to the day) in his cloud-ship to destroy the empire for indulging in human sacrifice. White guys in suits know best - Pat McCurdy
Post #7,967 by inthane-chan 9/7/01 6:31:55 PM Reply	Whoops! I'm kinda rusty on my Central American history - my mother hasn't had an opportunity to pound it into my skull for quite some time. ^_^ "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #7,975 by boxley 9/7/01 11:25:39 PM Reply	Without the Olmecs and Toltecs Slave nations to the Aztecs on the east coast, plus local superstition to use as propaganda, Cortez and crew would have died half way back to the coast. thanx, bill why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them? Randy Wayne White

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