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New Re: "Data" is whatever you make it
It does not make sense to have your "noun model" be both defined in code and defined in the DB. It has to be either one place or another, either that violate OnceAndOnlyOnce.

That's downright silly. If my "noun model" is originally defined in ER/Win, I'm violating the OnceAndOnlyOnce principle by using it in the database also?

BTW, does Static's reply make any sense to you? I couldn't "parse" it, and he got upset at me for that.

I think his point is that the representation of code is much more complex than you are describing. Take a look at [link|http://java.sun.com/docs/books/vmspec/|http://java.sun.com/docs/books/vmspec/] to see what's involved for Java.
Regards,
John Urberg
New complexity of Java is not a selling point
That's downright silly. If my "noun model" is originally defined in ER/Win, I'm violating the OnceAndOnlyOnce principle by using it in the database also?

Generally that is only for the initial design. But, it would be nice if they were integrated. If the tool could query the structures and make charts based on that, that would be great. MS-SQL-Server does it more or less (although it crashes often). Many MS-SQL-Server shops have such diagrams from the product all over their walls.

I think his point is that the representation of code is much more complex than you are describing. Take a look at [Java Virtual Machine] to see what's involved for Java.

What is your point? Java being complex is not a selling point. IMO it is too complex. If you have good table/relational tools, you don't need a lot of the crap that Java has IMO. Frankly, I don't know what Static's point is. He does not seem to like me personally, so it does not look like I will get an answer.
________________
oop.ismad.com
New I wouldn't bother, John.
I shouldn't have replied to him in the first place. He doesn't have any idea how a compiler works, doesn't understand scanning, parsing or lexing and has little idea how a symbol table functions. Small wonder he didn't understand either my descriptions.

Todd actually [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=70915|made my point] much more clearly than I did and the significance of this went right over his head.

Wade.

Microsoft are clearly boiling the frogs.

New No,YOU don't get it: 1-1-1 is Limiting
He doesn't have any idea how a compiler works, doesn't understand scanning, parsing or lexing and has little idea how a symbol table functions.

That is low level sh8t. I am trying to think above that here. Language parsers generate little data structures, and then uses the stuff in the data structure, not the code. The language itself is for human readability, not the machine's benefit. It is all data structures in the end, not periods and dollar signs.

Todd actually made my point...much more clearly than I did

Well at least you finally admit that your technical articulation skills are full of [biting tonque]. That is a first step.

Todd said: "Look your control tables are just replicating what the OO languages do for you automatically."

Yes, I will agree that it reduces the syntax of 1-way dispatch by about 5%, but bloats up n-way dispatching by far more, and has Meyerian Discontinuity faults (big changes) to go from 1-way dispatching to n-way.

You are bragging about how you can play your one-key piano without hands. That is great, except it can't compete with a 100-key piano using hands.

When all you have is a dictionary, then you start to look at everything thru dictionary-colored glasses. They have been blinded you over time by bad habits. I have liberated myself from dictionary-centric thinking of 1-dimensional OO dispatching and have (a) unlimited keys and (b) unlimited columns and (c) unlimited dispatch results. Your 1-1-1 limits of dictionaries is arbitrary arbitrary arbritray. You just have doing it for so long that you need a patch to quit the habit.

significance of this went right over his head.

The fault is with you, NOT ME! You cannot see the value of going beyond 1-1-1.

(Sigh, why do these discussions always turn out this way? Did *I* start it? Where?)
________________
oop.ismad.com
New *sigh* Since you asked...
(Sigh, why do these discussions always turn out this way? Did *I* start it? Where?)


1. You made an assertion about how OO worked on some theorectical level.
2. Several people agreed you were on the right track.
3. You made several replies inviting more comment.
4. I replied pointing out that pretty much any language offering classes and objects does what you initially suggested by hiding it in language semantics and automating it for the programmer. (I thought you would get annoyed if I said it like that, by the way.)
5. You replied that I didn't make any sense.
6. I elaborated, citing basic Computer Science fundamentals about compiling, adding on a postscript about a personal point-of-view to programming.
7. You replied to just the postscript.
8. I flamed back. In the Flame Forum, because I wanted to get personal.
9. You responded like you usually do.
10. Still in the Flame Forum, I told you to go learn how a compiler works.
11. You decried that as unimportant information you had no intention of seeking.
12. Two other respondants in this thread began citing basic compiler techniques.
13. I advised one such that you weren't interested in that kind of argument.
14. You got upset.

Bryce, the techniques that have been used to write computer language compilers for decades are still being used to implement the vast majority of current programming languages. Whether they are interpreters or compilers, something in between or some wierd combination of both, the techniques and concepts remain the same and are not going to go away. We all brought them up because your initial idea is (to a point) implemented by the compilers and interpreters themselves. It is, as you put it, "low level shit".

Go read a book about [link|http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805321667/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/202-4422159-5690206|how to write a compiler], Bryce. Please. It will help you stop making such a fool of yourself.

The fault is with you, NOT ME! You cannot see the value of going beyond 1-1-1.


Actually, I can. That was the very point of the postscript. I rarely think of "single-dispatch" versus "multiple-dispatch" because I almost never think of problems in those terms.

In the project I code for (it's a web service) there's a function for figuring out a return-to hyperlink. Currently, it is a very long switch statement. I'd like to replace it with something a lot more intelligent and elegant, but that takes time. Currently, when we add another valid return-to type, another few lines gets added to the switch statement. What I want to replace it with would involve adding two or three lines to each page that can be returned to a little bit of information about what parameters have to come back with it (that's the purpose of the switch statement). The return-to logic would then be able to easily figure out the appropriate hyperlink based on that. No switch statement. Instant multiple dispatch. No objects. Well, not unless you want to think of a .PHP file as an "object". Also no database storage or access.

Bryce, I can do magic things with 5 and 6 dimensional arrays. I can do nested string manipulations with indices. I scared my boss with my creative use of lists. With some effort and research, I can probably implement a recursive algorithm without recursion. One of those was something a colleague and a very good programmer said was impossible. If an object-oriented solution doesn't work, I will discard it. But if an object-oriented solution does work better than everything else I've tried, then I will keep it.

Go learn about how compilers work. Then we will have much better common ground to talk from.

Wade.

Microsoft are clearly boiling the frogs.

New shoeboxes, pencils, and strips of paper
I am frustrated because I don't see any way in living hell how compiler implementation has any fricken thing to do with this here, yet you make a big fricken insultive deal about it. It is like talking to the meter maid about differences between two watches and ticket times, and then she suddenly starts to mutter about how the car engine works.

I am *not* talking about machine efficiency here. I am talking about how it makes the life of the *developer* easier and simpler.

Building everything with a dictionary-like class hinders the *developer* because it forces them to funnel everything in their through the concept these "dictionaries". Whether the code is executed through a compiler or a person behind a black curtain using pencils, strips of paper, and shoe-boxes to execute it is moot.

Does your (weird vague) argument still hold if we assume that a person behind a black curtain using pencils, strips of paper, and shoe-boxes executes it?

I doubt it.

You OO'ers just think so weird upstairs. I cannot figure out your odd little minds. It is an intellectual culture clash worse than Middle East fights. Bizzaaar. Yet at the same time it is fascinating, like trying to figure out how aliens think. But the aliens piss in my face when I ask questions.

With some effort and research, I can probably implement a recursive algorithm without recursion.

I have done it using tables. You mark the nodes already visited and process those that are not. You can manage the ordering by sorting by path length and a few other things.

Go learn about how compilers work. Then we will have much better common ground to talk from.

You have not given any evidence that a specific implementation of a compiler is important (beyond performance issues). Whether it is Yacc, gerbals, or pencils and shoeboxes that executes the code is not a concern *at all* to the developers and designers, as long as those all follow the spec. I have no idea why you are bring it up. My schema was meant to be conceptual, not an interpreter design.

12. Two other respondants in this thread began citing basic compiler techniques.

It was a side topic about Smalltalk.

WRT your URL example, I have no idea what you mean by "return-to type". I would probably have to see a little code sample. You know what a fan I am of "type" taxonomies.

7. You replied to just the postscript. 8. I flamed back. In the Flame Forum, because I wanted to get personal.

What "back"? You are admitting that you got personal *first*, accusing me of "deliberately" doing some kind of evil textual act.
________________
oop.ismad.com
New Read everything again. Yes, the whole thread.
Because I'm not going to say anything I haven't already posted. Meanwhile, I'll try not to annoy you if you'll try not to piss me off.

I am *not* talking about machine efficiency here. I am talking about how it makes the life of the *developer* easier and simpler.

So am I. I'll say that again: so am I. The implementation details of a specific compiler or language were not mentioned and are not germane to the discussion (though they might be of passing interest). However, there are data processing algorithms common to virtually all language implementations that were. And the one in the spotlight is called a Symbol Table.

Building everything with a dictionary-like class hinders the *developer* because it forces them to funnel everything in their through the concept these "dictionaries". Whether the code is executed through a compiler or a person behind a black curtain using pencils, strips of paper, and shoe-boxes to execute it is moot.

This is where a grounding in basic computer science would benefit you. If you knew how a conventional compiler worked, you would already realize that your example is inverted. Taxonomy is usually implemented as a specific type of dictionary - called a symbol table - because that is what the language usually needs to achieve what the programmer intended. The namespace characteristics of object-oriented programming came first: dictionaries are the logical ways to implement them down inside the compiler/interpreter.

Does your (weird vague) argument still hold if we assume that a person behind a black curtain using pencils, strips of paper, and shoe-boxes executes it?
I doubt it.

Actually, it would. But I don't want to spend time explaining how right now.

Go learn about how compilers work. Then we will have much better common ground to talk from.
You have not given any evidence that a specific implementation of a compiler is important (beyond performance issues). Whether it is Yacc, gerbals, or pencils and shoeboxes that executes the code is not a concern *at all* to the developers and designers, as long as those all follow the spec. I have no idea why you are bring it up. My schema was meant to be conceptual, not an interpreter design.

I've already told you why I mentioned it: the use of dictionaries to manage type and object names is already in use and is further down in most languages than you think it is. It has nothing to do with a specific implementation. Go learn how a compiler works, already! The book I linked to is very well regarded and covers all the basics and lots more besides.

WRT your URL example, I have no idea what you mean by "return-to type". I would probably have to see a little code sample. You know what a fan I am of "type" taxonomies.

Let's not go down that road just yet, either.

Wade.

Microsoft are clearly boiling the frogs.

New You are still thinking in code
I've already told you why I mentioned it: the use of dictionaries to manage type and object names is already in use and is further down in most languages than you think it is.

It does not matter whether they are already there or not. Tablizing does *not* depend on them for noun modeling because it uses the database and *not* symbol tables nor dictionaries as its higher-level structure. (I suppose you are going to fuss that I should learn how RDBMS are implemented also. Note that one can probably build one using dictionaries of dictionaries if they wanted to. I don't question that.)

I will make you a deal: You go learn about why hierarchical and network databases failed, and I will go learn about compilers.

Sorry I brought the whole thing up. Use whatever fricken definition of OO you want. Mentioning the word "dictionary" apparently triggers rapidly firing memories of your compiler courses, blinding you to my point.
________________
oop.ismad.com
     A relational definition of OOP - (tablizer) - (62)
         It makes sense to me but also - (boxley)
         Pretty much correct - (tuberculosis) - (58)
             re: Pretty much correct - (tablizer) - (57)
                 The difference. - (static) - (4)
                     Re: The difference - (tablizer) - (3)
                         Okay, I'll try again. - (static) - (2)
                             re: Okay, I'll try again. - (tablizer) - (1)
                                 Go troll elsewhere. (new thread) - (static)
                 Its whats in the dictionaries that is interesting - (tuberculosis) - (41)
                     Re: Its whats in the dictionaries that is interesting - (deSitter) - (1)
                         Its very similar - (tuberculosis)
                     marrying data and behavior - (tablizer) - (38)
                         Re: marrying data and behavior - (tuberculosis) - (37)
                             Re: marrying data and behavior - (tablizer) - (36)
                                 Got it - (tuberculosis) - (35)
                                     you are not weighing the whole kitten kabootal - (tablizer) - (34)
                                         Kitten Kabootal?? Is that some stripper you know? - (deSitter) - (2)
                                             Don't I wish :-) -NT - (tablizer)
                                             I know her! great smile and a grinning kabootal! -NT - (boxley)
                                         Sure I am - but you're not - (tuberculosis) - (30)
                                             Wow! If this woun't get through, nothing can. - (Arkadiy)
                                             LISP - Lists + Relational - (tablizer) - (28)
                                                 Gets you Smalltalk - (tuberculosis) - (26)
                                                     Thanks! 1 topic down, Googolplex-1 to go. :-) -NT - (Another Scott) - (24)
                                                         For Bryce, this is pretty much the only topic he discusses - (tuberculosis) - (23)
                                                             That is not true - (tablizer) - (22)
                                                                 Not to mention sheet music conventions/annotations. :) -NT - (a6l6e6x) - (21)
                                                                     Woah - sheet music - I haven't seen that stuff in years... - (tuberculosis) - (20)
                                                                         Playing by ear - (Steve Lowe) - (8)
                                                                             ObAol MeToo (tm) - (Meerkat) - (7)
                                                                                 Re: ObAol MeToo (tm) - (deSitter) - (6)
                                                                                     I can read music, I'm just really slow at it. -NT - (Meerkat) - (5)
                                                                                         That's really interesting. - (static) - (3)
                                                                                             Speed-reader here - (drewk) - (1)
                                                                                                 You're a drummer? Cool! -NT - (deSitter)
                                                                                             I use chord charts a lot - (Steve Lowe)
                                                                                         Same here. - (admin)
                                                                         Todd, Steve, guys - just a well-meaning tip: - (CRConrad) - (10)
                                                                             CRC, Just a Well Meaning Tip.. - (deSitter) - (6)
                                                                                 What's annoying as Hell is pompous know-it-alls, and... - (CRConrad)
                                                                                 Bar table load times aren't affected by size of past chat -NT - (admin) - (4)
                                                                                     That's the legitimate use - (deSitter) - (3)
                                                                                         Naah, you're missing the REAL use: - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                                                             Re: Naah, you're missing the REAL use: - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                                                                 OK, that last point is one we can agree on, at least! :-) -NT - (CRConrad)
                                                                             If I had any idea this would be so hot - (tuberculosis)
                                                                             Well meaning tip - (Steve Lowe) - (1)
                                                                                 Long as you knew you "prolly shoulda", that's all I wanted. -NT - (CRConrad)
                                                     But I get juiced-up dispatching, et al. - (tablizer)
                                                 Re: LISP - Lists + Relational - (deSitter)
                 re: Pretty much correct - (johnu) - (9)
                     "Data" is whatever you make it - (tablizer) - (8)
                         Re: "Data" is whatever you make it - (johnu) - (7)
                             complexity of Java is not a selling point - (tablizer)
                             I wouldn't bother, John. - (static) - (5)
                                 No,YOU don't get it: 1-1-1 is Limiting - (tablizer) - (4)
                                     *sigh* Since you asked... - (static) - (3)
                                         shoeboxes, pencils, and strips of paper - (tablizer) - (2)
                                             Read everything again. Yes, the whole thread. - (static) - (1)
                                                 You are still thinking in code - (tablizer)
         Re: A relational definition of OOP - (deSitter) - (1)
             Re: A relational definition of OOP - (JimWeirich)

Fighting and romance are weirdly similar in many ways. Two people lock eyes in a crowded room. Everybody can feel the intensity of the emotions between them. One of them suggests that they step outside. “Come on, just you and me.” It starts out dignified, but they end up rolling around, tearing at each other’s clothing.

Also, both fighting and romance tend to look a lot better in movies than they do in real life.
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