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New Using a patent against Microsoft
[link|http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20021107.html|http://www.pbs.org/c...lpit20021107.html]

All of this depends, of course, on the willingness of the remaining plaintiffs to settle for money alone. Most of the parties will do this. Certainly, the public companies like Sun and AOL would be hard-pressed not to, since shareholders might view rejecting a billion in cash as acting against their fiduciary responsibility. The class action suits are generally looking for money. And Microsoft has a long tradition of quietly paying-off plaintiffs in its intellectual property cases.

But what if they won't settle for money? This brings us to Mike Doyle, who runs tiny Eolas Technology Inc., which controls a patent that covers embedding plug-ins, applets, scriptlets, or ActiveX Controls into Web pages -- the use of any algorithm that implements dynamic, bi-directional communications between an app embedded in a Web page and external applications. That more or less defines how the World Wide Web is used today. As I have written before, Eolas is suing Microsoft for patent infringement, and has been generally wiping the floor with Redmond. Of course, so did the DoJ, and look how THAT turned out. The suit comes to trial in the spring and should be very interesting, not just because of the principles involved, but also because Mike Doyle and Eolas insist they are looking for more than just money.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Scary patent.
Everyone depending on Eolas' good will?

Will the end justify the means?

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
New That's what scared me about it, first time we heard of it.
New Not really
Patents don't guarantee complete control over an invention. They don't necessarily even guarantee at which rate the inventor will be paid. They do guarantee that they'll be paid.

If they successfully sue MSFT, and MSFT then wants to use their patented invention, they cannot restrict them from using it... they can only make them pay for it. And, if their costing for MSFT (or any other entity) was considered overly punitive, they could be taken to court to get the prices changed.

Patents \\= complete control.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada                   [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New What is "overly punative" for Mozilla?
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
Expand Edited by ben_tilly Nov. 9, 2002, 07:27:28 PM EST
Expand Edited by ben_tilly Nov. 9, 2002, 07:27:32 PM EST
New >0
Of course, I don't think that the way patents are currently treated in the US is the best way to handle it... and I think it's very safe to say that the interests of the public software crowd are very far from the hearts and minds of the people in charge of dealing with those issues. However, there are a couple of issues to keep in mind:

Just because these guys charge money to MSFT doesn't mean they have to charge money to the Moz team. The idea that it has to be the same price for everyone is a myth. Not only that, but MSFT couldn't turn around and use the fact that the Moz team is getting it for free as evidence that they should get it for free either. Price differentials based on the customer is a time-honoured tactic.

OTOH, they would ALSO be free to turn around and charge AOL for their branded version of Mozilla. Just because the software codebase is basically the same doesn't mean that there aren't in fact two different entities involved.

In fact, this is pretty much how I expect it to play out.

Of course, if these guys do get rapacious, then perhaps it can be a catalyst for getting the current very dumb approach to patent and IP in general in the US changed.

I've pretty much moved on to the place where I think "bring on the abuses... work it ever harder boys" with the idea that the sooner the greedheads overload the system, the sooner it will break down and become obvious to everyone but the pathologically greedy that the pathologically greedy need to be taken in hand.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada                   [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Expand Edited by jake123 Nov. 9, 2002, 11:11:28 PM EST
New Point to consider
If they want to blow open the browser market so that they can get licensing money, then they have almost as much reason to want to see open source solutions fail as IE.

I do not expect them to play nice with Mozilla if they get the chance. :-(

Cheers,
Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
New At that point...
... it will be time to move the project offshore to somewhere with a more reaonable IP regimen, and cut the ties with AOL.

Might give some people pause... as I said... my pov on all this now is "bring it on"... the sooner the bullshit meter cranks on up to new heights of insanity the sooner people will no longer be able to ignore it and start dealing with the elites as needed.

The elites here seem to have forgotten that really rampant abuse of our systems like this tend to result in the long run with the elites swinging from trees (and I'm not necessarily being metaphorical about this either... it's not like it hasn't happened before, nor recently (cf Rumania)). I don't think the current crop is going to (re)learn that lesson until some of them ARE swinging from trees... so the sooner that some of them end up in the aforementioned trees the sooner we're likely to start seeing reasonable behaviour from them again.

You pointed out earlier about how the current administration is largely staffed by people with a lot of experience in replacing democratic regimes with authoritarian ones. However, there are some major differences.

One: is the US army going to go and suppress fellow Americans in the streets? They may do it once or twice, but after that... there will be desertions, and there will be hell to pay.

Two: They're going to try and be authoritarian with a very large group of people that aren't accustomed to that, don't like it, and have a lot of guns. There is a huge part of the US population that hasn't been heard from at all in this entire debate. If they get pissed off, they will make themselves heard, and forcefully.

However, if they really mean it, I have no doubt that it will make for some very unpleasant years in the US... and for its neighbours, which explains my interest in it.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada                   [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New "Not really" -- not really

Patents don't guarantee complete control over an invention. They don't necessarily even guarantee at which rate the inventor will be paid. They do guarantee that they'll be paid.

\r\n\r\n

Not quite.

\r\n\r\n

A patent provides the legal right to mount a credible defense of the patent. These days, a patent isn't even taken to certify that an invention was patentable (only that, by perverse logic, it's been patented).

\r\n\r\n

The pragmatic reality is that a patent buys you the ability to transfer ~$1m from your opponent to his lawyers (and likewise yourself), this being about the running rate for a patent court case, with a possible payout from one side or the other at the conclusion. Generally, the "safe route" is to seek patent fees in the range of $10k - $100k (much higher and a joint defense or challenge becomes possible). Trying to mount a "bet the company" battle against Microsoft would be interesting, but unless the Eola has revenues sufficient to support the effort, ultimately futile. A payoff is more likely. Most interesting would be sale of the patent to a core foe of Microsoft, likely IBM or Sun. I see Sun as the company more likely to be able and willing to put up a blocking challenge to Microsoft, though participation in standards organizations may constrain even Sun. IBM has too many mutual relationships with MSFT to be a credible adversary, though the patent would be a nice leg up, and would certainly be tapped for a substantial revenue transfer.

\r\n\r\n

As for uniform licensing: a patent provides the right to control use of a technology. That control might be "all comers: pay me $X to do Y", it might be "I and only I can do Y", it might be "Me and my friends can do Y, you're fucked". Any of these are valid outcomes. Though if the adversary has other patents of use to you, you might be persuaded to moderate your stance.

--\r\nKarsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
   Keep software free.     Oppose the CBDTPA.     Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
New And in practice...
As for uniform licensing: a patent provides the right to control use of a technology. That control might be "all comers: pay me $X to do Y", it might be "I and only I can do Y", it might be "Me and my friends can do Y, you're fucked". Any of these are valid outcomes. Though if the adversary has other patents of use to you, you might be persuaded to moderate your stance.

The point of most patent portfolios is something to swap with other established vendors to create a barrier of entry for anyone else. (Which allows all of you to raise profit margins.)

Cheers,
Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
     Using a patent against Microsoft - (admin) - (9)
         Scary patent. - (imric) - (8)
             That's what scared me about it, first time we heard of it. -NT - (CRConrad)
             Not really - (jake123) - (6)
                 What is "overly punative" for Mozilla? -NT - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                     >0 - (jake123) - (2)
                         Point to consider - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                             At that point... - (jake123)
                 "Not really" -- not really - (kmself) - (1)
                     And in practice... - (ben_tilly)

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