IWETHEY v. 0.3.0 | TODO
1,095 registered users | 0 active users | 0 LpH | Statistics
Login | Create New User
IWETHEY Banner

Welcome to IWETHEY!

New Re: Recount confusion, again

I hope they go with a statewide manual recount, even if it slow. But I expect the whole thing to get hung up in the courts, and who knows how they will rule.

\r\n\r\n

I hope you guys don't take this the wrong way, but the fact that a manual recount of votes in the case of a close call could be something that ends up in court is a sad testament to the state of your democracy.

\r\n\r\n

Simply put, it's never wrong to recount the votes... hell, here in Canada it's required whenever there's a close vote (ie- within a certain percentage point); the ballot boxes come out, people sit down (with scrutineers from each candidate... or at least each candidate that bothers to send one: usually the two front-runners) and they go through 'em one at a time.

\r\n\r\n

You know, with the new <koff koff> «paperless» ballot system some people are vending down there, the simple expedient of sitting five or six people in a room to "go over the receipts" (as it were) to verify that the books are consistent with reality strikes me as absolute madness. The more I think about the election game in the US as it has been played so far this century, the more I think you folks really need to take a hard look at the state of your republic and the place of democracy within it. It could be in real danger.

\r\n\r\n

Speaking of the whole issue of democratic procedures, we had an [link|http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?current_row=3&tf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.html&cf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.cfg&configFileLoc=tgam/config&encoded_keywords=election+of+committee+chairs&option=&start_row=3&start_row_offset1=&num_rows=1&search_results_start=1&query=election+of+committee+chairs|interesting outbreak of real democracy] up here this past week. Here's the story in a nutshell (esp. for those not so familiar with parliamentary systems):

\r\n\r\n

In general, most of the productive work of the House of Commons (Lower House in the Canadian Parliament... think Congress for you Yanks;) is done in committee. Committee chairs have traditionally been appointed by the PM. There was a vote in the House of Commons to change that procedural rule (part of the organic law of the Constitution... and an unwritten one to boot) to require that the chairs be elected by secret ballot in the House. This is significant because \r\n\r\n

    \r\n\r\n
  1. The chairs control the agenda for the committees, so they get to decide what gets discussed.
  2. \r\n\r\n
  3. The chairs will be picked democratically instead of by executive fiat.
  4. \r\n\r\n
  5. Members of Parliament and esp. back benchers (MPs who are low in seniority) will not be punishable for voting against the party line.
  6. \r\n\r\n
\r\nThe party, the PM, or the party whip will have to actually convince their members that they should vote for "this guy" instead of "that guy"... and they can't nail you for voting for someone that the PM doesn't like... because none of these entities will know how each member voted. Also, since it's a secret vote, it's not a vote of confidence in the government, so there's truly no downside for the back bench to torpedo the choice of the front bench if the front bench are being goobs... which happens on a fairly routine basis.

\r\n\r\n

A lot of people haven't really understood the ramifications of all this... most of the commentary is about the particulars of why it happened, which is mostly about the PM, the former Minister of Finance, and his aspirations to be Canada's next PM.

\r\n\r\n

However, this is going to be a Big Deal... the chairs of the Commons committees get to decide who is going to yap... and if MPs are able to vote for the chairs on conscience without fear, that means that the variety of viewpoints presented to lawmakers is probably going to expand considerably. It also cuts way back on the power of the PMO (Prime Minister's Office) which is a good thing as its been sucking up power into itself out of the Commons for a very long time now.

\r\n\r\n

And now for the obligatory anti-US Canuck stab;) while up here we (through an unlikely confluence of events, mostly related to the unbounded hubris of our current PM) are seeing our institutions become more democratic, and you down there are seeing your democratic processes being reformed in such a manner as to invite subornation to achieve the (imo mistaken) goal of greater efficiency at election time... the extreme right wing in the US (for the lack of anything better to do with their time I guess) seems to be [link|http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021109/UREVUN/national/national/national_temp/4/4/19/|criticising Canada] because we're not a powerful nation.

\r\n\r\n

I guess it shows where their priorities are... power or democracy. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader ;) to figure out which one has the priority.

--\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\r\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\r\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\r\n* Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada                   [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New What democracy?
I am coming to believe that the US has little left but the forms of the democracy that wiped out the Republic. The point is not missed on me that the family nominally in charge is backed by people who have decades of practice in replacing democracies by dictatorships. The prospect of their doing the same in the US no longer seems to me to be as ridiculous as it once was.

As for a recount, given how easy the computer machines are to manipulate, they might still not get a fair result.

Regards,
Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
New You'd like this post to comp.risks.
[link|http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/22.37.html#subj1|2002 Elections: Republican Voting Machines, Election Irregularities, and "Way-Off" Polling Results]

Excerpt

Republicans dominate the voting machine business. So, I expected the
Republicans to take back the Senate... amid reports of voting machine
"irregularities" in several states and polling results that didn't come
close to election outcomes. And with billions of dollars at stake, who
could resist the temptation to tweak results? It's duck soup.

Dr. Rebecca Mercuri, the nation's leading expert in voting machine
technology, says, "Any programmer can write code that displays one thing on
a screen, records something else, and prints yet another result." But they
do make mistakes as we know from the multitude of reports in this election
and past ones. Dr. Mercuri's real fear is that one day the "irregularities"
will go away, as programmers learn their clandestine craft all too well.


Wade.

"Ah. One of the difficult questions."

New Seen other stories on the same topic
And I have pointed out the same information here before.

[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=61307|http://z.iwethey.org...w?contentid=61307]
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=60875|http://z.iwethey.org...w?contentid=60875]

Cheers,
Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
New Re: Seen other stories on the same topic
Maybe that means that people are beginning to wake up? Or do you just mean here and in other "fringe media"?
--\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\r\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\r\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\r\n* Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada                   [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New The latter
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
New That's too bad. OTOH, it's early days yet. Give it some time
--\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\r\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\r\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\r\n* Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada                   [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New This story goes back a few years already. :-(
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
New I shouldn't be surprised. :-)
I went looking to see if the [link|http://www.aec.gov.au/|AEC] is thinking of voting machines. They've rejected the idea several times! They seem to think the US use of them is "problematic"...

I also found this: [link|http://www.eca.gov.au/reports/electronic_voting.pdf|Electronic Voting and Electronic Vote Counting: A Status Report] (pdf).

Wade.

"Ah. One of the difficult questions."

New Heres a good one
[link|http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/metropolitan/1652544|Houston Chronicle]

Faulty chip hands election to wrong canidate. The problem was only discovered because the vote was so lopsided in an unexpected way.

At least they had the sense to count the votes by hand even after getting a new chip.

The way things are going to Alabama they may not get a recount at all.

[link|http://www.al.com/news/mobileregister/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/1036837040270380.xml|Mobile Register]

The Republican Attorney General has released a legal opinion that it would be illegal to actually open the sealed ballot boxes despite the fact that there is a law in the state that lets people request recounts.

Jay
New First Voodoo Economics! now.. Ashcroftian 'logic'
     Recount confusion, again - (JayMehaffey) - (12)
         Re: Recount confusion, again - (jake123) - (10)
             What democracy? - (ben_tilly) - (9)
                 You'd like this post to comp.risks. - (static) - (8)
                     Seen other stories on the same topic - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                         Re: Seen other stories on the same topic - (jake123) - (3)
                             The latter -NT - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                 That's too bad. OTOH, it's early days yet. Give it some time -NT - (jake123) - (1)
                                     This story goes back a few years already. :-( -NT - (ben_tilly)
                         I shouldn't be surprised. :-) - (static)
                         Heres a good one - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                             First Voodoo Economics! now.. Ashcroftian 'logic' -NT - (Ashton)
         Just got back from bama - (boxley)

You got the chainsaw. Now find some meat!
114 ms