Post #55,739
10/9/02 10:30:54 AM
|
I don't like it either.
Honda fought tradition in Japan to become an innovative, world-class manufacturer of all sorts of power equipment - from lawnmowers to F1 motorcycles and racing engines to hybrid passenger cars.
Harley-Davidson sat on ancient technology, got government protection, and makes over-priced two-wheeled boat-anchors.
So there!
Yes, I know you're talking about Harley riders and Honda auto drivers. That's an apples and oranges comparison if there ever was one. :-) The Harley riders I see are generally in two camps. The traditional bikers, and the 50-ish guys with too much money for their own good. In each case, having a Harley seems to be an image-thing - not that Harley's are the best motorcycle for their needs. Honda car buyers don't usually, it seems to me, buy them because they want to be "in" with the "cool" crowd...
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
|
Post #55,752
10/9/02 11:45:00 AM
|
Was talking about Honda motorcycle riders
That was kind of the whole point, actually. Bikers "should" stick together against the "common enemy".
As for the middle-aged nouveaux bikers, keep in mind how much more mature the motorcycle industry is than the computer industry. Also think about how many PHBs are spouting the Linux mantra because they've seen all the IBM commercials but it's just another buzzword to them.
And while Harley did ask for temporary tarrifs, they used the breathing room to turn the company around to profitability. Then they went to congress to ask them to drop the tarrifs over a year before they were due to expire.
Some more similarities: Hardcore Harley enthusiasts like the fact that they still can work on their own bikes. They can count on a basic engine design to be around for several years, if not decades. So a 20-year-old Harley is still worth something. You can still find parts for it. Your typical 20-year-old Honda wouldn't be worth most people's time to work on.
New features on Hondas are usually designed in a studio somewhere, then it is either popular or not. And if not, odds are it will disappear from future models, no matter how rabid a small core of afficionados may be. With Harleys, typically the designers go to bike meets to see what users are already doing for themselves and incorporates a version of it into future models, usually as an optional accessory.
Speaking of which, most Harleys are customizable beyond belief right from the factory. You can pick up multiple catalogs of factory and aftermarket accessories and have them installed by the factory or by the dealer.
===
Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
|
Post #55,772
10/9/02 12:40:29 PM
|
Ok. But, one can still get Model T parts too... :-)
|
Post #55,775
10/9/02 1:14:35 PM
|
Sure, but try to get Edsel parts
Or try to find parts for a 1982 Honda GL500 or CM450. Then compare this to rebuilding any '82 Harley. And even that is skewed by the fact that the early 80s were about the low point for Harley.
===
Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
|
Post #55,776
10/9/02 1:37:33 PM
|
We're getting away from your point, I think.
Cottage industries are built-up around products that users love. Whether it's [link|http://www.edsel.com/pages/psupply.htm|Edsel parts] or [link|https://www.partsnmoreonline.com/PNMSite/CBX_MAIN.htm|Honda CBX parts], if there's enough demand someone will try their best to fill the niche.
Analogies are always imperfect. I think that, as a company, Honda more closely fits with the Linux ideal (innovation, inexpensive high quality products, pushing the capabilities of the product, young enthusiastic buyers, etc.) than does Harley-Davidson (stasis, expensive, old customers, not keeping up with the times, etc.). I think the analogy works much better with Microsoft = H-D and Linux = Honda when applied to users and companies. But I guess we disagree.
My $0.02. :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
|
Post #55,785
10/9/02 2:26:59 PM
|
Who's doing the innovating?
Honda more closely fits with the Linux ideal (innovation, inexpensive high quality products, pushing the capabilities of the product, young enthusiastic buyers, etc.) But with Linux it's the users who do the innovating, as with Harley riders[1]. With Honda the company does most of the innovation and high-end development. Microsofties would say the same of Microsoft. And remember I'm talking about the users in both cases. Harley riders like to build their own, and the ability to do it yourself is often more important than the initial product. I would say that Honda the company is a model of what we wish, and Microsofties believe, were the case with Microsoft. In fact if Microsoft were more like Honda, Linux would probably never have existed. Just as Harley would never have existed if they had entered a market like the one Honda is in today, with the type of bikes Harley builds today. I suppose the biggest problem with my analogy is that the computer industry is much more driven by perception than reality. Before Honda entered the U.S. market, Harley's way was the way things were done: slow changes, lax quality-control, but enthusiastic owners could customize the hell out of them. Now anyone wanting pure performance buys a Japanese bike, but there is still a hard core of Harley owners who aren't as concerned with the end result as with the process. They want to work on their bikes. In the computer industry today, Microsofties believe they have the higher-performance product, and that they don't need to do as much work to maintain them. They believe Linux is only for people who want to tinker with their systems. And to an extent they are right about that last point. The big difference is that because of Microsoft's abusive practices toward their partners and customers, there is a growing population of users who want to know they could work on their own systems, even if they never actually do. This is part of the reason Linux is gaining popularity, even in the face of Win2K, a generally stable, well-performing product. [1] As always talking about the more "outlaw" image. ===
Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
|
Post #55,892
10/9/02 11:46:38 PM
|
What user innovation?
As you refer to "Outlaw bikers"[1], I suppose you mean bob jobs and choppers? Where the boat anchor is turned into an ill handling torture rack? They make for great eye candy, but are absolutely useless in any practical sense. Sounds more like Microsoft style innovation to me :) [And of course, H-D shamelessly stole their looks from Indian...]
There is actually a lot of true user innovation (as in where the performance of the bike is enhanced in a usable fashion) for the Japanese and Euro performance bikes. Most of the work is done by/for privateer race teams and is to a large extent available to the general public.
[1]A large section of the originals rode Triumphs and Nortons...
|
Post #55,915
10/10/02 1:17:37 AM
|
hunter S, used a beemer
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane."
Lyndon LaRouche
|
Post #55,999
10/10/02 1:15:04 PM
|
BSA, not BMW
I seem to recall that in his Hells Angels book he bought a BSA and subsequently wrecked it.
There's kinda sorta difference between the two. :)
Of course he could have bought a BMW later, but BSA is all that sticks in my mind.
|
Post #56,027
10/10/02 2:44:25 PM
|
yer right bsa, knew it was BSomething :-)
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane."
Lyndon LaRouche
|
Post #55,914
10/10/02 1:13:23 AM
|
harley riders like to build there own, can you back that up?
Over how many harleys on the road, how many are built custom by owners vs how many are bought customised by tubbies. Until I see some figures I am not buying into the anology.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane."
Lyndon LaRouche
|
Post #55,989
10/10/02 12:19:49 PM
|
Like I said, more mature market
The self-built chopper may be mostly a historical artifact now, but it was never really true of the Japanese bikes.
To tell you the truth the whole idea of this comparison didn't come from a calculated reading of the facts. It started as a realization that the general public views "bikers" as long-haired non-conformist types with grease under their fingernails and leather jackets riding a loud Harley chopper. The reality is that has never been true of the majority of bikers.
Similarly the general public views "computer geeks" as Nick Burns, Your Company's Computer Guy from the SNL skit. If you haven't seen it, it's every ugly stereotyp you can imageine of poor fashion sense, poor hygeine, non-existant social skills, and an overriding sense that he is doing you a favor to fix the problems you have caused by your own incompentence. Just like with bikers, this is not really the majority, but it's the view the general population holds.
I was trying to figure out why the similarity of the sterotypes. After some more thought I've come to an even more interesting conclusion. Linux users actually are using the more cutting-edge system, generally do have more technical skill. They are often able to create their own software and sometimes act as if this makes them superior to everyone else. Windows users believe they are useing the more advanced system and tend to get defensive when the Linux users challenge them.
Harley riders seem, for the most part, to be attracted to the Harley legacy of self-reliance. But performance-wise Honda (and the other Japanese manufacturers) surpassed them in most measurable categories years ago.
This comparison is clearly not ready for prime time, but I'd love to have the time and resources to actually do some research and interviews to see why people choose the brands they do in bikes and computers.
===
Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
|
Post #56,026
10/10/02 2:43:42 PM
|
Years ago I "owned" a harley
stopped riding when I realized thar sharp right hand turns at speed from pavement to gravel often meant picking gravel out of my ass. Since getting wiped and then getting wiped wasnt too productive I moved on and to Alaska where biking is a 2.5 month pleasure maybe and got out of the habit. I am thinking of a bike for here but will NOT be harley because I dont want to be identified as a tubbie and dont own a set of colors for I am by nature not a joiner. Thinking an old BSA or moto guzzi.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane."
Lyndon LaRouche
|
Post #56,098
10/10/02 10:28:41 PM
|
Here in Los Angeles . .
. . we're pretty much devoid of the yuppy Harley riders - they must all be up in Silicon Valley, San Francisco and other "botique" towns.
Some of the Harley riders we have here are overweight now, and many have long white beards and hair, but they still have their leather jackets and boots, and would still "Rather Eat Worms than Ride a Jap Bike". They're milder now than they were, but I still wouldn't recommend messing with them.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
|
Post #56,417
10/12/02 8:30:39 PM
|
Re: Here in Los Angeles . .
How many of those kamikazes-in-the-canyons rice-rocket-riders die every year out there? I remember lazily negotiating a canyon rode near Malibu, one with precipitous dropoffs and pitiful guardrails - when SZHROOM! - these shirtless X-ers passed me going at least 70 or 80. I could only shake my head in wonder at the value these two placed on their lives.
-drl
|
Post #56,419
10/12/02 8:53:59 PM
|
Oh, not too many . . .
. . maybe two or three a week. Nothing we can't live with. One Suzuki pilot made the paper this week by fleeing from the police. Intersectioned an Excursion at the hard end at 90+ and rides no more (no injuries in the Excursion).
Don't see shirtless ones in my area (probably mostly in the beech communities), but a lot in bike matching $1500 leathers and $450 helmets.
Best description I've ever heard was made up by Sandra (whom I haven't seen for 20 years now):
Kabuki Insects
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
|
Post #56,418
10/12/02 8:32:08 PM
|
Re: Here in Los Angeles . .
How many of those kamikazes-in-the-canyons rice-rocket-riders die every year out there? I remember lazily negotiating a canyon road near Malibu, one with precipitous dropoffs and pitiful guardrails - when SZHROOM! - these shirtless X-ers passed me going at least 70 or 80. I could only shake my head in wonder at the value these two placed on their lives.
-drl
|
Post #56,420
10/12/02 8:56:28 PM
|
You seem to have developed a bit of a stutter . .
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
|
Post #56,493
10/13/02 11:28:02 AM
|
Worse
Since I've been writing a great deal, I've noticed that I substitute homophones in places automatically - really annoying, don't know if this is age, beer damage, or just going verbally ass over teakettle.
Also substituting the wrong short word - e.g. "and" for "are".
-drl
|
Post #56,129
10/11/02 1:18:02 AM
10/11/02 1:25:22 AM
|
You're omitting the whole pre-Honda US market
British bikes ruled. Period. And the testing ground was the GP race - Isle of Man in particular. In the '50s the "World's fastest Standard Motorcycle" == their sloan and a fact: was Vincent.
But the ruler for handling, for 500 cc class racing was ever the Norton ('featherbed' frame and with Magnesium alloy goodies, as well as after-market race bits as would always appear - for any model). Migawd, there were.. BSA, Matchless/AJS, Ariel [square four and others), Triumph, Villiers, Velocette... and the 128 mph Vincent Black Shadow = in 1951 yet. (I owned several brands and several Vincents incl. the 500 cc single = half a 1000 cc Vee twin). These ARE the story of "actual motorcyles" appearing in Murica, after all the years of trucks - killing all those State Troopers and others. We always confuse Size with Good.
British bikes were the group targetted by Honda et al (Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki and a few oddities like a Japanese copy of a BMW (!))
Just as the MG TC brought to the attention of returning vets from WW-II, the Fact that a car could be light limber and Fun - so was the Brit bike invasion the corollary for 2-wheels. Freed from the evil-handling Harley trucks, natural Murican innovation occurred. One was for Show and oil stains wherever parked - the others were for actual superb handling and a bit fewer oil stains.
Honda made the oil stains go away and Much More. (as Harley has now - on their 15-25 THOUSAND dollar Gucci gowns for those who want to be Seen). Most of the Brit bikes mentioned - outhandled the early Hondas. Tales of Norton Dominator 88 or 99 (500, 600 cc vertical twins) to confirm that-all.
ie I'd opine that Honda would have had *no* market here, had not the British created one - via machines which acknowledged that the laws of physics are stern: and a bloated 700 # behemoth with girder forks and foot clutch - just won't cut it.
(No, I don't know where this fits in with computer analogies; I rank M$ more simply):
Machiavelli + G\ufffdbbels eat everyone's lunch via rapine, massive lies and the support of fellow Repos everywhere - who idolize 'success' of this kind - especially in Murica, where no one cares How you Win or who you kill enroute \ufffd
Cheers,
Ashton
PS - I doubt the Yuppie Harley riders even adjust a chain = it's all Service Shop and.. detail it while yer at it. Wrenchers are poor, or racing - or riding Other bikes, which handle. (or a few ancient folks left from the early days = also poor. Still.)
Edited by Ashton
Oct. 11, 2002, 01:25:22 AM EDT
|
Post #56,189
10/11/02 10:51:06 AM
|
Re your PS. I've seen Harley's that don't have chains...
They've got [link|http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/hdbeltdrive.htm|cogged belts]. A useful innovation. I have no idea whether they came up with it first though.
Cheers,
Scott
|
Post #56,194
10/11/02 11:07:46 AM
|
Well, sorta
The idea of belt drive is very old. Probably the oldest drivetrain, actually. And hugely inefficient as it slipped. The toothed belt was much more recent, and was first used on camshafts and other lighter-duty applications. They were made possible by advances in kevlar and nylon manufacturing (though there are other materials being used now, I'm sure).
Harley were the ones who got the idea to try the huge ones for final drive to quiet the noise down. This is a company that does 3-D sound modelling of all new products to make sure they sound right. No one else would have cared so much about the noise from a chain.
===
Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
|
