Post #5,352
8/15/01 9:21:25 PM
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Fun with Win2K
Yeah, yeah. I know. I'm using it at work until I get my new box (probably tomorrow).
Anyway, I was amused by this. I was using Explorer to move a directory tree. Cut it, pasted it, some file was open somewhere, got a message. Did Undo Move. Closed files. Wash, rinse, repeat. Two more times (God only knows what it thought had a file open).
On the third time, *bam*, down goes Explorer, desktop and all. :-)
Then, my second day at work, I couldn't login in the morning. Some wierd-ass Active Directalmy problem. *sigh*
Same old NT, IMO. Sorry, Peter. :-)
The NT admin was more than happy to let me whack my new box and put Linux on. :-)
Regards,
-scott anderson
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Post #5,363
8/15/01 10:45:08 PM
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under why2k
a copy is merely a link until the billybob.dll decides that you really wanted to copy it there now I go copy, wait several days delete original file. 2 days is optimum many times I have copied to a new tree a 670k file deleted original and when I do a dir on the new location about 10k is available and file not found when I try to open it.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
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Post #5,377
8/16/01 1:09:50 AM
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Nice admin.
Generally, if you can talk to them in their language (really), they will let you do more-or-less what you like to your PC because they know you'll support yourself anyway. That's how I got away with all sorts of things on my PC when I was at the bank. :-)
Wade.
"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
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Post #5,381
8/16/01 2:45:21 AM
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And just to balance the view...
...I've been running W2K on my home and work PCs since RC2 and I've never crashed the desktop yet...
I've seen two bluescreens, both related to crappy NVIDIA drivers - the first was whilst trying to play Q3A on a box with only 64MB of memory. That's iu 2 years. I've locked up X hard more times than that in the same timespan. The point being that on the desktop, W2K is just as stable (probably more so) than Linux. Which is to say, neither of them does a whole lotta crashin'.
To give you an idea of the kind of stuff I move around, I recently had cause to cut and paste 4G of files at a time, over the network. I didn't even blink. I did go for a coffee, though.
The problem with this kind of anecdotal evidence is that if it were a Linux box that keeled over, we'd be all over it - "what's the distro, kernel, hardware, etc etc etc" - but as it's *Windows 2000*, which, as a community, we don't really understand, we just go "oh, it must be because the software is inherently crap". Personally if a box crashes like that I want to know why, because it's a problem.
Zapping the OS is just RRR writ large.
And if you can make your Linux box interoperate with AD, then good luck to you.
(Here's a clue. Other than getting at old-stylee shares and printers, you can't)
Don't get me wrong - I'm posting this from Mozilla 0.9.3.1 running on Red Hat Linux 7.0.90 with GNOME 1.4 and all the fixin's, because I *prefer* the GNOME desktop to Windows - but it's this kind of attitude that will cause mucho problems. Because W2K really is good enough to threaten Linux with extinction, both on the server and on the desktop. (I know MS seem hell bent on ruining W2K on the desktop with XP, but still...).
Complacency is bad.
--
Peter
Shill For Hire
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Post #5,425
8/16/01 11:32:36 AM
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Touchee, touchee...
...as the Smothers Brothers used to say :D The problem with this kind of anecdotal evidence is that if it were a Linux box that keeled over, we'd be all over it - "what's the distro, kernel, hardware, etc etc etc" - but as it's *Windows 2000*, which, as a community, we don't really understand, we just go "oh, it must be because the software is inherently crap". Personally if a box crashes like that I want to know why, because it's a problem. Almost. I personally find crap in both platforms, and am more than willing to say about Linux, "it's because the software is crap." It's just that Linux' crap is fixable more often than Windows, to a greater depth of 'fixability', and without paying the vendor insane amounts for tech support. It's not a matter of understanding as much as praxis. But otherwise, I agree :) That's her, officer! That's the woman that programmed me for evil!
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Post #5,492
8/16/01 7:54:08 PM
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Suppose that your experience is typical?
No - it's a question. Just wondering. I mean - I'd expect that *you'd* do clean install, run SpinRite, keep up with all patches, MT the \\temp periodically and - keep your own log of ap loading order and other Dll-Hell salves (or does 2K at last allow loading into mem of more than One library - and keep track of associations? and jail offending?)
I'd also imagine that you immediately ghosted (or equiv. image) your clean install, keep notes on config of aps, vacuum clean the Registry with whatever corrective utils. are out there (?)
Now what about the rest - ghost? whodat? .dlls - huh? (OK the patches remain Everyone's problem, to be smart enough to seek and use)
Still.. when (not if) you do find that combo of ap order + commands which trashes your 2K highly transient marvel - (what? another 6 mos, 12? before rendered er *unsupported*; better Upgrade):
It's RRR - and without ghost et al (how many do not have such, today?) - you Are Up a Creek for hours and hours, with notes (if you kept them) of everything you altered since install. On *your time* or some company's time. How long to fix an X- crash? Betcha it Ain't RRR ;-)
So if you want to compare these 'relatively ~~ stabilities' and blithely elide the quite different consequences of unfixability, not to mention the other ongoing costs after the steep purchase cost:
That massive hardware just to walk - the insufferable Dumbed-down "we know you didn't Really want to move that file - so we put in a link" BS over and over and on towards ---> web-wide proprietary brothers and sisters now being hatched.. (if DOJ fails to do duty, once again) - well..
Bon appetit y'all :-\ufffd
PS - I don't doubt for an instant your experience; what about normal peoples', if there is any hi confidence-level data (?)
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Post #5,566
8/17/01 3:17:10 AM
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I think it's *fairly* typical
I run this stuff for a living, remember. And I know a lot of people who run W2K, mainly online gamers who have high standards of stability and performance. Hell hath no fury like a gamer whose PC crashed in the middle of a league match. (I play first person shooters, like Quake and Counter-Strike, which stress the PC substantially by using lots of memory, CPU, disk and network I/O, all at once)
I don't use SpinRite, or Ghost.
Interestingly, by comparison with previous versions of Windows, I don't see the amount of cruft accumulating on the system (temp files etc) that I did with NT and the bletcherous 9x series.
As for patches, I keep up to date on all my systems with the tools provided (Windows Update for W2K, Ximian Red Carpet for Linux).
On Linux and Windows I'm highly selective about the software I install. The result is a system that hasn't been reinstalled even once since I installed the OS, about 14 months ago. (I got a new disk).
I don't particularly like the explorer shell, for a number of reasons:
1. There are no high-quality replacements
2. No multiple desktops
3. Dragging/copying behaviour is non-intuitive for the reason you mention
4. It just doesn't look as nice as my GNOME desktop with the Crux GTK+ and Sawfish themes. XP doesn't improve on this.
5. It's slow - you try opening an explorer window onto a directory with hundreds or thousands of files and you'll see what I mean.
On unfixability, I'd say Linux is easier to fix than W2K, but there's nothing more miserable than a Linux box with a broken RPM database :-). Or a horked ld.so 8-(
--
Peter
Shill For Hire
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Post #5,571
8/17/01 4:17:11 AM
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Thanks - helpful.
Don't do games but know a couple who do. Offhand can't think of any task that would exercise so many interrupts, the bus, and all the peripherals - more. Unless maybe - if you could do all that - while compiling a new kernel too?
('Course ya don't get to to do that. ;-)
NO reinstall in 14 mos. OK. I'll be a bit more respectful of the oleaginous spawn of a despicable beast which sells relatives into slavery and leaves radioactive feces ... while fostering whininess as a speech impediment. To be fair.
Then too, the obvious question on finding out that someone competent deems ~ "yes, this sucker seems actually to work" is:
So.. What Took Them So Long ???
Besides the readily apparent cupidity, deliberate ploys as emerged from the DOJ e-mails, backward compatibility (the longest-running excuse of them all?) and just plain slothfulness (?)
(Did they in fact - throw that bug switch discovered when Alex mailed out the Nifty Doorways source code ? Come clean now. I mean.. when that switch IS finally uncovered...)
:-\ufffd
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Post #5,748
8/18/01 12:07:08 PM
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Complacent...
Because Win2K was always a temporary installation for me. I was fairly certain I could run Linux there before I started work. So no, it's not "RRR" writ large. I had no intention of using Win2K from the beginning. I hate the interface, I hate the paradigm, and I hate the lack of customization.
I was just amused (deserved or not -- in my experience, deserved) that I had problems like that my first two days using Win2K, after having not used Windows as a main operating system for years and years because of the problems.
My experience has always been that Linux problems can be researched and fixed much more easily than Windows problems. You experience may vary. I've had a Linux desktop freeze up maybe 3 times, and twice it was attributed to Windows software running in VMWare. The third time it was some other easily identifiable problem. But in the space of a few days, I had two wierd-ass problems with Win2K that weren't readily attributable to any one action or badly written program, OTHER than the OS. And that's a big problem with Win2K -- it's monolithic. I can't replace the desktop when I have issues like that, as I did with KDE moving to Gnome.
No problem attaching to anything so far, and it's all Active Directalmy. The only problem I had was with DHCP, and that's some sort of wierd network card issue or something because I could use DHCP once the interface had been primed already.
I don't think it was the cutting and pasting... it was the cutting and pasting with Win2K believing I had something open, and then me optimistically thinking that "Undo" would really work under those conditions.
One final note on complacency: my intention is to replace most if not all of the developer boxes here with Linux, based on the functionality I can achieve with my box as compared to the Win2K boxes. I've already gotten a few bites. So no, I don't consider that complacency at all.
Regards,
-scott anderson
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