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New National Socialism was capitalist?
Welfare queens didn't exist?

All in all, an interesting mix of fact, interpretation presented as fact, denial and pure ideological bullshit. I like the idea of using graphs. It makes the bullshit so much clearer.

It's a cheap rhetorical trick to make a parody out of somone/something's name, unless it happens to be clever or singularly apt. "Raygun" was clever once, for a few minutes. But it's awfully stale now. Likewise "Asscroft" "Clintoon" and "Micro$oft." Anyone who uses these should hang his head in shame. "Dubya" has a nice ring to it, though. Sounds folksy. "Bubba" is simply too descriptive to ever part with. And "Tricky Dick" will always be funny.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Everything's a mystery until you figure out how it works.
We are here to go!
The nihilists and the liars have buried truth alive in a shallow grave.
New National Socialism was Capitalist? Absofsckinglutely
The Nazi's were sponsored by the Industrial Captains of the age. Even Henry Ford was a fervent believer as well as many of the moneyed class in England Specifically the Duke of Windsor. nazi's made sure that communists and other folks like unions who wanted a share of industry will disapear. Unfettered capitalism with the government in their pocket is the essence of national socialism. If you are not ready to do the research let me know I'll publish some links. Read Mein Kampf fer crying out loud.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/Resume.html|skill set]
[link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/index.html|boxley's home page]
qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
New No, you blew it. It doesn't work that way.
[link|http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/german1.htm|Socialist is as socialist does]

Excerpt:

The Nazi economic system developed unintentionally. The initial objective in 1932-33 of its economic policy was just to reduce the high unemployment associated with the Great Depression. This involved public works, expansion of credit, easy monetary policy and manipulation of exchange rates. Generally Centrally Administered Economies (CAE's) have little trouble eliminating unemployment because they can create large public works projects and people are put to work regardless of whether or not their productivity exceeds their wage cost. Nazi Germany was successful in solving the unemployment problem, but after a few years the expansion of the money supply was threatening to create inflation.

The Nazi Government reacted to the threat of inflation by declaring a general price freeze in 1936. From that action the Nazi Government was driven to expand the role of the government in directing the economy and reducing the role played by market forces. Although private property was not nationalized, its use was more and more determined by the government rather than the owners.

Eucken uses the case of the leather industry. An individual leather factory produces at the direction of the Leather Control Office. This Control Office arranged for the factory to get the hides and other supplies it needed to produce leather. The output of leather was disposed of according to the dictates of the Leather Control Office. The Control Offices set their directives through a process involving four stages:

* 1. The collection of statistical information by a Statistical Section. The Statistical Section tried to assemble all the important data on past production, equipment, storage facilities and raw material requirements.
* 2. The planning of production taking into account the requirements of leather by other industries in their plans; e.g. the needs of the Shoe Control Office for supplies of leather. The available supply of hides limited the production of leather. There had to be a balancing of supply and demand. The result of the planning of all the control offices was a Balance Sheet. There was some effort at creating some system for solving the planning, such as production being limited by the narrowest bottleneck, but in practice the planning ended up being simply scaling up past production and planning figures.
* 3. The issuing of production orders to the individual factories.
* 4. Checking up on compliance with the planning orders.

In practice the authorities of the control offices often intervened and there was continual negotiation and political battles as the users of products tried to use political influence to improve their allocations. The prices of 1936 made little economic sense, particularly after Germany was at war. So there economic calculations using the official prices were meaningless. In particular, the profitability of a product was of no significance in determining whether it should be produced or not. Losses did not result in a factory ceasing production; the control offices made sure that it got the raw materials and that the workers got rations of necessities.

At the beginning of the war the Government established a priorities list for allocating scarse resources. Activities associated with the war got top priority and consumer goods production was near the bottom of the list. If two users wanted gasoline any available stocks went to the user with the highest priority. This seems reasonable but, in fact, it led to major problems. Suppose one use of gasoline is for trucks to haul raw materials to factories. If the Government always gives the available gasoline to the Army then the truckers cannot deliver supplies to the factories and they shut down and eventually other factories dependent upon them also shut down. At first the Government tried to handle the problem by revising the priorities list and moving up uses such as gasoline for trucks. But whatever uses got put at the bottom eventually created bottlenecks. In the middle of the war the Government abolished the priority list. It was an unworkable system.

The problem with making production decisions without reference to relevant prices is that the control offices may dictate the production of goods which are of less value to the economy than the opportunity costs of the resources that go into their production.

Because of the mistakes and failures of Centrally Administered Economies there are often black markets operating. Although the authorities typically persecute people for dealing in these markets the reality is that such markets are essential for preventing a collapse of the Centrally Administered Economy.

Production decisions may be made on political criteria that are economically foolish, such as locating a factory in a region to benefit the supporters of some political figure. Even aside from such corruption of the decision process the centrally administered economy suffers from major weaknesses. The centrally administered economy can mobilize resourts quickly for big investment projects but there is no guarantee that there will be a balance of investments. For example, there may be big programs to build railroads but not enough trains to make use of those railroads.

Although Centrally Administered Economies may appear to be efficient and effective initially their errors and inefficiencies accumulate and eventually result in stagnation if not collapse. Often the apparent successes of such economies are just illusions. Outsiders who do not know how such economies really work are often fooled by these illusions.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Everything's a mystery until you figure out how it works.
We are here to go!
The nihilists and the liars have buried truth alive in a shallow grave.
New What does your link have to do with how the nazis rose
to power? And note, who was at the top of that economic food chain. Krupp IG farben, Ford, etc. The examples of the enefficiencies are correct because it is "RUDIMENTARY SUPPLY CHAIN MANAGEMENT" I am sure you have heard that phrase before and not from socialists but from the Giants of Americn Economy. Everything you describe about the leather factory is practiced in todays boardrooms. The failure point was inadequate planning resulted in artificial shortages that drove production down and costs up. The entire country was being run initially by Big Money Interests overriding common sense and international trade.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/Resume.html|skill set]
[link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/index.html|boxley's home page]
qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
New A few links on nazism and capitalists entwined
[link|http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1930-ger/330610.htm|link]
"German fascism, like Italian fascism, raised itself to power on the backs of the petty bourgeoisie, which it turned into a battering ram against the organizations of the working class and the institutions of democracy. But fascism in power is least of all the rule of the petty bourgeoisie. On the contrary, it is the most ruthless dictatorship of monopoly capital. Mussolini is right: the middle classes are incapable of independent policies. During periods of great crisis they are called upon to reduce to absurdity the policies of one of the two basic classes. Fascism succeeded in putting them at the service of capital Such slogans as state control of trusts and the elimination of unearned income were thrown overboard immediately upon the assumption of power. Instead, the particularism of German "lands" leaning upon the peculiarities of the petty bourgeoisie gave way to capitalist-police centralism. Every success of the internal and foreign policies of National Socialism will inevitably mean the further crushing of small capital by large."

Even you might agree that trotsky new economic and political theory fairly well
the horses mouth, old adolf in Mein Kampf
[link|http://www.stormfront.org/crusader/texts/mk/|Mr. Hitlers Best Cellar]

"The lasting war against German 'heavy industry' was the visiblebeginning of the internationalization of German economy toward which Marxismwas striving, though this could not be carried to its ultimate end untilthe victory of Marxism and the revolution. While I am writing these words,the general attack against the German state railways has finally succeeded,and they are now being handed over to international finance capitals 'International'Social Democracy has thus realized one of its highest goals."
see he liked the idea of private property anf big industry.
and they liked him
[link|http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/chapter_07.htm|link]
"In 1923 I came into contact for the first time with the National-Socialist movement .... I first heard the Fuehrer in the Essen Exhibition Hall. His clear exposition completely convinced and overwhelmed me. In 1927 I first met the Fuehrer personally. I travelled to Munich and there had a conversation with the Fuehrer in the Bruckmann home. During four and a half hours Adolf Hitler explained to me his programme in de tail. I then begged the Fuehrer to put together the lecture he had given me in the form of a pamphlet. I then distributed this pamphlet in my name in business and manufacturing circles.
Since then I have placed myself completely at the disposition of his movement, Shortly after our Munich conversation, and as a result of the pamphlet which the Fuehrer composed and I distributed, a number of meetings took place between the Fuehrer and leading personalities in the field of indus. try. For the last time before the taking over of power, the leaders of industry met in my house together with Adolf Hitler, Rudolf Hess, Hermann Goering and other leading personalities of the party.
In 1925 the Hugo Stinnes family contributed funds to convert the Nazi weekly Volkischer Beobachter to a daily publication. Putzi Hanf-staengl, Franklin D. Roosevelt's friend and proteg\ufffd, provided the remaining funds.6 Table 7-1 summarizes presently known financial contributions and the business associations of contributors from the United States."

heres a cool one a listing of US backers, all capitalists
[link|http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/table_7-1.htm|table]
thanx,
Bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/Resume.html|skill set]
[link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/index.html|boxley's home page]
qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
New Bravo! Bill - fine sleuthing.
It kinda preempts the review I planned of another interesting take on the ascent of the Nazis, in which the author coins (?) the term dynamism to signify pretty much that which Trotsky expresses so ably, so irascibly and so accurately:

that none of the 'planks' or platforms or the other daily-changing principles one read in the V\ufffdlkisher Beobachter (main official organ of the NSDAP) -- were ultimately meant to mean Anything! whatsoever, upon accession to power: and.. they didn't.

What dynamism meant was ~ as Trotsky describes; a state of continual 'revolution' and the wholesale jettisoning of every human concept from ethics through *'honesty' - replacing these with the mumbo-jumbo worship of the 'Folkish' myth (as in V\ufffdlkisher.. above) and other confabulated pseudo-mystical claptrap. Never a need to justify a blind alley entered or an outright disaster along the way; Hey! we're "a work in progress"..

* lots of talk of Honor, of course - but only intertwined with some idea of restoring Die Volk! to rightful Rule over Mankind\ufffd. And as Trotsky points out - it's all about control of all capital, at the top (it was not 'planned' that Hitler alone.. should ever become the Only 'Top' = assuredly not by the self-serving Industrialists nor.. by the thoroughly conned Army leaders. Hitler laterally arabesqued Them All and the remaining thinking volk.. never found a way around That. Until dissolution.)

Another reminder too, of what a mentation was lost when Stalin's proxy ice pick snuffed Trotsky in Mexico. (I have an old paperback in Spanish, As\ufffd Assessinaron a Trotsky, "How we assassinated Trotsky". Have yet to more than skim this one.)

No wonder that the Vulture Capitalists of all ages find a certain comfort level with such a process as recognizes ONLY the naked acquisition of Power as the one legitimate Purpose in life; Power for the purposes of creating Empire (but please to never reveal where you are Actually ---> Going, til after you have seized the Power. Even then.. never reveal.) The literal meaning of esoteric, these volk.

Re the Harrimans, Putzi Hanfstaengel, Hjalmar Horace Greeley Schacht (!), (and don't forget Prescott Bush!) Maybe 1:1000? 10000? Muricans have the slightest idea of.. "It's eleven o'clock; do You know where Your CIEIO is tonight?" Lay/Enron in the White House formulating 'energy policy' - is no more surprising than Henry Ford's great admiration for Der F\ufffdhrer, or his Soviet-style accelerated assembly lines for the Model T. They all morph together at the reins of massive economic control of the sheep. And to these: we are all sheep for shearing.

So anytime there is a crisis of sufficient depth and duration in the world, nascent creatures of this religion shall manifest - whether bearded or skinheaded. Hence the title of the book I'm about half-way thru:

The Revolution of Nihilism Warning to the West by Hermann Rauschning \ufffd1939 (written winter '37; finished and publ in German - in Paris! months before the invasion of Poland.)


It's Out There..
So it goes..

Take yer pick.


Ashton
New Nit - "Assessinaron"
That's the third person plural past tense. The title would be best translated as "How they assasianted Trotsky."

And yeah, I find the volkiness of Reagan and George II (in whom it is utterly and completely fake - George I literally didn't know how the rest of us do supermarket checkout when he was in charge. But he didn't fake the volkiness, and I give him credit there.) quite creepy.

----
United we stand

Divided we dominate the planet without really trying
New Re: Nit - "Assessinaron"
Yes, I should have noticed. 'Asesinamos' ?
But the title is correct (except for my spelling it with 2 esses), so it's clearly They.

Now if the Muslims only had a Garcia Lorca in their midst, to speak now about the 'collateral damage' done and about to be exponentiated.

(Hah! and see that published in US press?)

I once heard a lengthy KPFA documentary (radio) on the Spanish Civil War, with Lorca's work interspersed. The theme music was the haunting Schubert Trio Op. 100. Whoever discounts the power of measured words and magnificent music to convince, to shame and to fortify - must be one of those who imagine that merely enough techno - can prevail over any outrage.


Ashton
New Case study #1, additional.
All in all, an interesting mix of fact, interpretation presented as fact, denial and pure ideological bullshit. I like the idea of using graphs. It makes the bullshit so much clearer.
If you have specific, accurate counters to the material presented (and there was a lot of it so finding specific, accurate counters shouldn't be difficult) then present them.

Otherwise, subject continues to exemplify the behaviour patterns I noted months ago.
New On marlowe's post
"All in all, an interesting mix of fact, interpretation presented as fact, denial and pure ideological bullshit. I like the idea of using graphs. It makes the bullshit so much clearer."
The above is an accurate statement. I found the same mix in that particular link and his remarks on diminuizing people by name playing also a good point.

Marlowe when hearing nazi's thinks of concentration camps and jackboots not economic theory. He see's the word socialist and associates with the left. That is why I took the time to educate him with the further posts.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/Resume.html|skill set]
[link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/index.html|boxley's home page]
qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
New I don't see it that way.
Marlowe when hearing nazi's thinks of concentration camps and jackboots not economic theory. He see's the word socialist and associates with the left.
I will agree with you on that.

"All in all, an interesting mix of fact, interpretation presented as fact, denial and pure ideological bullshit. I like the idea of using graphs. It makes the bullshit so much clearer."
The above is an accurate statement. I found the same mix in that particular link and his remarks on diminuizing people by name playing also a good point.
Allow me to expound. Suppose you and another person are listening to a third person explain how the space program was a fake because the world is flat. You'd think that person was an idiot.

And the other person could agree that the third person was an idiot.

Then the other person says that the world isn't flat it is a sphere and the universe revolves around it and that is why it is obvious that the space program was a hoax.

The other person's summary of the third person is correct.

The details are the problems.

And, as you've noted, Marlowe doesn't have much depth of knowledge on the details.

So, is Marlowe's summary accurate? Maybe. Maybe not.

Is the basis for Marlowe's summary accurate? I'm going to say no.
New hate to defend marlowe but here goes
"Was not the decade of the 60s and the early part of the 70s considered to be radical era, a time when tradional values were questioned and rejected. In this case, the rise of fascism in America was a reaction to the "hippy era" and all that it implies. But this is not a wonder, the elites of the business world embrace stability and loathe changes. Stability translates into predictable profits, changes on the other hand are not predictable and could threaten profits. Now we have established the link between the moneyed elite and the reactionary nature of fascism."
the above was my quote of the link.
"In this case, the rise of fascism in America was a reaction to the "hippy era" and all that it implies"
The rise of facism and all it implies was not a result of the hippy era. The rise was in direct result of the supreme court rulings that gave us the miranda warnings, riots over black vs rights issus and the civil rights movements. Big business used civil disorder to expain US flight when a horrendous trade issue began to arise. A shoe completed by vietnamese labor for $2.00 could compete with$32 dollar BK nights with a large markup. This is not facism but taxable trade imbalance. If goods were landed at American Shores and the profit margin was taxed at the landing price vs the selling price we would not be in the situation we are today. This is not facism it is imblance of trade.
thanx,
bill

thanx,
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/Resume.html|skill set]
[link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/index.html|boxley's home page]
qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
New I'm confused.
hate to defend marlowe but here goes
But then I don't see anything about defending Marlowe's points of fact.

Probably because Marlowe didn't present any.

Instead, you're presenting counters to the original article.

As I noted in my previous post, it is possible to be "correct" in your summary, but for completely incorrect reasons.
New my math teacher used to say the same thing
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/Resume.html|skill set]
[link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/index.html|boxley's home page]
qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
New OK Captain Clarity - let's see your substantive rebuttal.
I do so look forward to your line by line (or at least \ufffd by \ufffd) 'correction' of the mass of material you collectively dismiss with gradeschool swagger. Alas, your opinion of the author's style is no more important than my opinion of yours (and Human Events' ~ indistinguishable).

Too much trouble? Rather snipe with dullard quips?

Fair enough, Captain. Clarity can never be coerced, we see.


Ashton
If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us.
Hermann Hesse
New Okay, General Gibberish
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=51529|Here it is]
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Everything's a mystery until you figure out how it works.
We are here to go!
The nihilists and the liars have buried truth alive in a shallow grave.
     hmm proof I am a southerner by nature (fixed link) - (boxley) - (18)
         Link doesn't work - (marlowe) - (1)
             It works for me. -NT - (a6l6e6x)
         National Socialism was capitalist? - (marlowe) - (15)
             National Socialism was Capitalist? Absofsckinglutely - (boxley) - (2)
                 No, you blew it. It doesn't work that way. - (marlowe) - (1)
                     What does your link have to do with how the nazis rose - (boxley)
             A few links on nazism and capitalists entwined - (boxley) - (3)
                 Bravo! Bill - fine sleuthing. - (Ashton) - (2)
                     Nit - "Assessinaron" - (mhuber) - (1)
                         Re: Nit - "Assessinaron" - (Ashton)
             Case study #1, additional. - (Brandioch) - (5)
                 On marlowe's post - (boxley) - (4)
                     I don't see it that way. - (Brandioch) - (3)
                         hate to defend marlowe but here goes - (boxley) - (2)
                             I'm confused. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                 my math teacher used to say the same thing -NT - (boxley)
             OK Captain Clarity - let's see your substantive rebuttal. - (Ashton) - (1)
                 Okay, General Gibberish - (marlowe)

They're a cornered rat, and quite frankly, I think they have rabies to boot. I'd rather not get too close to them.
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