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New Dunno.
Discover (from 2014):

Physicist John Baez has another, more colorful word to describe the spate of recent reports about a breakthrough space engine that produces thrust without any propellant. The word starts with “bull–.” I won’t finish it, this being a family-friendly web site and all. Baez himself has softened his tone and now calls it “baloney,” though his sentiment remains the same: The laws of physics remain intact, and the “impossible” space drive is, as far as anyone can tell, actually impossible.

The story begins several years back with a British inventor named Roger Shawyer and his EmDrive, a prototype rocket engine which he claimed generated thrust by bouncing microwaves around in an enclosed metal funnel. Since no mass or energy emerged from the engine, Shawyer’s claim was another way of saying that he’d found a way to violate the conservation of momentum. In Baez’s words, “this is about as plausible as powering a spaceship by having the crew push on it from the inside.” Shawyer argued that he was exploiting a loophole within general relativity. Baez calls his explanation “mumbo jumbo.”

[...]


http://www.quora.com/Does-the-Cannae-Drive-disprove-the-law-of-conservation-of-momentum (from 2014)

[...]

Now, on to the Cannae drive--could it be generating thrust through some novel means, sticking the momentum into some unknown form? Yes. But I am EXTREMELY skeptical that they've measured anything real. And their comments about interaction with some quantum vacuum virtual plasma is pretty much just word salad. Nobody outside of NASA Eagleworks (who did the testing) uses that term, which should raise some red flags right away.

First, they are trying to do a torsion balance test, which are known for being extremely tricky and finicky (see Impossible Thruster Probably Impossible for some details on that front). This was tested over only a few days and only a few times, which is not much time for trying to iron out all of the issues. I would want to see months of testing to confirm any sort of results. Did I mention that Science is Hard?

[Second - issues with testing in air ]

Third, their null test gave about as much thrust as their proper test. While one could argue that the null test was not "really" a null test as, since they don't really know how it works, maybe how they made it null (removing the slots) wasn't affecting it much, but it definitely kills their explanation of how it works (since their theory relied on the slots).

Fourth, this is a conference proceeding, not a paper. This means that nobody in the greater scientific community has formally vetted it (though now many are making comments in response to the news) and let me tell you, many many proceedings turn out to be wrong (I've caught mistakes in my own proceedings). These are more "interim" reports than anything final. So I'd give it fairly little scientific weight.

And, while this may sound a bit petty, the report looks sloppy, which does not inspire me with confidence. The fact that for their own proceedings they did things like take photos of graphs on their computer screens instead of downloading the data and putting it in nice graphs (which takes 20 minutes of effort, mostly to make the graph look nice): sloppy*. They talk about irrelevant things in the experimental set-up (like what sort of solder they used) and ignore important things like what the Cannae cavities are made out of (Copper? Or some kind of superconductor?). They have some inconclusive results and then end the report with some grand scheme of all the things that could happen if they scaled this up.

Just no.

This is the kind of thing I put out if I'm rushing to write a lab report for a class and am not putting too much thought into it. I will later accept the C grade and then never look at the report again. While you could have a shoddy paper for interesting results, this really does not instill any confidence in me that this test was undertaken with enough care and precaution to counteract all the sources of experimental error.

So I cannae vouch for the Cannae drive. Like the neutrinos we thought were faster than light (a measurement that was later found to be due to a loose wire) it's all too easy for these sorts of things to be some experimental hitch.

Science is Hard.

For more reading, I recommend John Baez's post: https://plus.google.com/117663015413546257905/posts/C7vx2G85kr4

*Alternately, you could just press "Print Screen" on your keyboard, open up MS Paint, and crop the image to get something that looks nicer. That takes 30 seconds. IT TOOK MORE WORK TO TAKE THE IMAGES OFF OF A CAMERA LIKE THEY DID.


Doesn't sound like anything real to me. Maybe there's something there, but they need to publish a decent paper about it first. March posting breathless results to a web site isn't going to convince people who understand the physics.

Cheers,
Scott.
New they are using the ''krugman effect"
borrowing thrust from the future for use today :-)
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New Re: Dunno.
The null apparatus only removed the dielectric, from what I've read. It's not a true null. Also, there are two different drives being tested, but folks are conflating them. Comprehensive explanation here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/34cq1b/the_facts_as_we_currently_know_them_about_the/

Again, running the test in a vacuum is just removing one of the objections. Likely it won't prove out in the end. If it does, however, there will definitely be some new physics from it. Keep in mind that the NASA testing is an attempt to validate the original inventor's claims, so it's not as if this is a lone crank. There are definitely methodology concerns, however, as Baez pointed out a year ago.

Keep in mind that Eagleworks is there to look at stuff like this too:

http://www.ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=20110023492

Baez hasn't yet commented on the 2015 tests. Brian Koberlein is also unconvinced, but maybe not quite as vehemently as Baez. :-)

https://briankoberlein.com/2015/05/01/when-i-see-an-elephant-fly/

Personally I'm excited to see the back and forth. This is how science is done, so long as the rigor of the testing continues to increase. My expectation is that at some point they will go, "oh... THAT'S why", and another mark in the column of "make sure you account for farblegranzens when testing RF thingies" will be made.

The only test that will truly convince is putting one of these in a cubesat and sending it off to the Moon under thrust. However, I've read comments (unsubstantiated, so hearsay right now) that the inventors of the various drives (4 at last count) were all given the idea from observations of microwave communications satellites whose orbits were decaying faster than expected.
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
New Why I think there could be something there
Wouldn't it be a remarkable coincidence to have been born into the exact moment in human history where everything we know about physics is correct?

Hmm, here's a thought. Will there come a point where the amount of "unknown" will start to decrease? Can we ever know so much about how things work that new discoveries close gaps without raising more questions than they answer?
--

Drew
New Thanks for the linkies.
The topic is interesting, and I wouldn't be surprised if some new type of propulsion technology eventually becomes reality, but what little I've read about this tells my gut that this isn't it.

One doesn't claim violation of Newton's Laws lightly. The sloppiness of the initial conference paper and the (still) lack of peer review are warning signs.

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1101.1063 (10 page .pdf):

Culling Progress

To avoid the extremes of reflexive dismissals and
sensationalist hype common with revolutionary pursuits,
it is recommended to focus on the rigor and objectivity
of the concepts rather than trying to judge their
feasibility. An impartial feasibility assessment on
unfamiliar topics is as difficult as a research task unto
itself. Instead, the level of rigor is easier to judge.

Classic symptoms of non-rigorous work are
reflected in Langmuir “pathological science” [3],
Sagan’s “baloney detector” [4], Baez’s “Crackpot
Index” [5], and the lessons from the NASA
Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project [1: Ch 22].
Representative symptoms from those sources include:

• Selectively addressing supporting evidence while
neglecting contrary evidence or the possibility of
false-positives.

• The magnitude of effect remains close to the limit
of detectability, along with claims of great
accuracy.

• Drawing conclusions from inadequate sample sizes
(Statistics of small numbers).

• Confusing correlation with causation.

• Lack of relevant reference citations.


Yup. There are warning signs...

Scott writes:
The only test that will truly convince is putting one of these in a cubesat and sending it off to the Moon under thrust. However, I've read comments (unsubstantiated, so hearsay right now) that the inventors of the various drives (4 at last count) were all given the idea from observations of microwave communications satellites whose orbits were decaying faster than expected.


It's a good idea, but I doubt that would be conclusive unless they find a way to get a decent amount of thrust out of them. (E.g. variations in the atomospheric density could swamp the thrust.) And if the satellites are broadcasting microwaves toward the Earth, shouldn't the "thrust" push them to higher orbits? IOW, isn't it backwards if there's some mumbo jumbo physics really happening?

Careful science is really, really hard but it's necessary when one is trying to prove something tiny exists (or doesn't). Some of the Millikan's Oil Drop apparatuses were quite sophisticated in order to try to reduce possible errors. The same principles are used these days in the search for fractional charge:

https://www.slac.stanford.edu/exp/mps/FCS/FCS_hist.htm

It'll be interesting to see if they actually publish anything about the EM Drive... :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New Interesting if they publish
That's the thing... most of this is media hype at this point. One of the scientists refuses to talk to the press at all because they aren't done with their testing. There hasn't been a real paper published yet, just some reports of findings. And so on.

In other words, the team thinks it's worth pursuing, the media is hyping the bejeezus out of it, and until something actually gets published we're not going to know the full story.

This team is also deliberately not investigating the why right now, just the if.
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
     Microwave space drive passes another test - (malraux) - (10)
         Very cool. Thanks! -NT - (mmoffitt)
         Re: new physics - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
             They mention that. - (malraux)
         If this is real, I suspect I know (VERY roughly) what's happening - (drook)
         Dunno. - (Another Scott) - (5)
             they are using the ''krugman effect" - (boxley)
             Re: Dunno. - (malraux) - (3)
                 Why I think there could be something there - (drook)
                 Thanks for the linkies. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                     Interesting if they publish - (malraux)

Inquiring minds want to scream.
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