It's not the number of people that matters.

Post #390,667 by Another Scott 6/11/14 8:57:11 PM Reply	It's not the number of people that matters. We're not going to put the US nuclear genie back in the bottle (see my earlier reply below), so the idea of somehow splitting the country up while a rump federal government keeps control over the nukes seems fatally flawed to me. But I want to push back on the premise. I don't think that 10-20M people is a limit for a reasonably well functioning democratic, broadly liberal, sane, government. California, with a population of ~ 38M, was governed by what could be described as "nut cases" not that long ago but has turned a corner. Kampuchea, a country of 8.5 M or so, was briefly ruled by genocidal psychopaths. Splitting up the USA would be a disaster. In addition to the nuclear weapons issues, the extreme variation in family income, infrastructure, social services, land use, etc., would get worse. Imagine the tolls and tariffs that would arise when you drove across the new boundaries. Imagine a country without a national EPA and living downstream from a mine or factory. Imagine importing food from Libertystan and not knowing what's in it. And don't forget that we tried a loose confederation of states without a strong federal government - the Articles of Confederation. It didn't work, that's why the Constitution was written in the first place. Later on, we tried living without a national FDA and wondered what was in our hot dogs along with the sawdust and rat parts... We've got it pretty good under our present form of government. We can refine and reinvent it every day if we choose and are willing to do the work. Throwing up our hands and saying we've got to throw it all away and start over because the oligarchs control too much is naive, it seems to me. The people who show up are the ones who will build the future. Don't accept that change will come from staying home. Remember what happened in the VA-7 primary last night... Turnout, Turnout, Turnout... My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #390,677 by a6l6e6x 6/11/14 11:22:13 PM Reply	California even survived Gov. Moonbeam! :) Back in the day... Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #390,680 by rcareaga 6/12/14 12:40:53 AM Reply	You're aware, aren't you ...that Mike Royko, who coined that flippant soubriquet in 1976, subsequently repudiated it? In 1980 he wrote “I have to admit I gave him that unhappy label...the more I see of Brown, the more I am convinced that he has been the only Democrat in this year’s politics who understands what this country will be up against.” Still later (in 1991), he called the label, an “idiotic, damn-fool, meaningless, throw-away line,” and pleaded with people to stop using it. I've long regarded Brown as one of the most interesting and intelligent figures in US politics. cordially,
Post #390,682 by Andrew Grygus 6/12/14 2:52:07 AM Reply	Every week I get several calls asking me to invest . . . . . in drilling oil and gas wells. A couple of years ago I got a call from some guy in Texas trying to sell me oil wells - and he pretty soon figured I wasn't buying, but he was in a talkative mood that day, so we had a short conversation, which got down to this: Texan: "Well, at least you folks in California have a really good governor." Me: "Well, you know, here in California, we believe in recycling - so we just re-elected Jerry Brown." Texan: "Oh no!" Yes, and prosperity is finally returning to California - not to the level when he was governor before, but we're doing better - his re-election is in the bag. And some of his "moon beam" ideas are now standard practice in all the Blue States.
Post #390,720 by Ashton 6/12/14 4:48:29 PM Reply	My first thought on first hearing the Moonbeam appellation was the obvious one: the utterly predictable manifestation exactly, of Alex's excellent Sig. My namesake, having studied in a seminary, apparently acquired the sense of proportionality of that liberal education which many parents hoped would result, even in the then-America (supposing that young Genghis did not expire via some stupid frat-house initiation.) This automatically placed him in diametric opposition to such as would coalesce, finally as the Ronnie Rogues of Trickle-down and the Neo- rampant language-atrocities of reactionary minds. He grokked adequately, I thought, the cauldron of roiling What-Ifs? whose epicenter was, of course Berkeley du jour. The rest is in legible histories. (Clearly we agree that, as CA dwellers we are fucking-Lucky to have such a one as Gov, within times so parlous as to spawn legions who worship lunacy and call it patriotism.) Junk-words which insinuate themselves into (today's) framing-weapon are surely more powerful than nukes (which you can't Use/just threaten with.) It's still the Biggest crap-shoot ever. Wisdom surely resided in many of the Founding Mothers, but we now have a Majority of runts-of-the litter. "Politics" this diseased happens only at.. the denouement of any enterprise, as every historian has warned. We kill-em-off or assuredly become their thralls, dining on McRat Nuggets. It's D-Day 2014-16+ Ring! that fucking-Tocsin (that Human Events icon for assembling all their mouth-breathers for mayhem.)
Post #390,727 by a6l6e6x 6/12/14 6:22:43 PM Reply	Did you note the smiley? He was not terribly effective the first time. Now, he's probably the most effective governor in the US. Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #390,730 by rcareaga 6/12/14 6:33:09 PM Reply	Noted, yes, but Not clear as to whether irony or a smirk was intended. Brown's first two terms were not bad at all, particularly measured against the governership of the Blessed Saint Alzheimer. cordially,
Post #390,734 by a6l6e6x 6/12/14 7:32:11 PM Reply	Well, Prop 13 comes to mind. That sure cut into spending on schools and used up the state's surplus. Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #390,735 by rcareaga 6/12/14 7:57:12 PM Reply	Re: Well, Prop 13 comes to mind. Not exactly a Brown initiative, though he certainly acquiesced to the fait accompli. Do you remember what the Prop 13's proponents held forth as their main argument? California was running a budget surplus under Brown. No one wants to talk about that now. cordially,
Post #390,759 by Ashton 6/13/14 4:44:01 PM Reply	Wiki-P gives a decent synopsis of Gann/Jarvis' motives and.. barely limns the Loss to CA brainpower subsequently. While I benefited from the thing, (especially its timing: a few years before peddling my manse in Kensington) I can't claim prescience of just How-horrible would be the fall-out of this putative subsidy for old-folks-staying in-house in perpetuum. (And I Should have grokked that immediately; all ye need know is Alex's/Asimov Sig.)
Post #390,744 by mmoffitt 6/13/14 9:09:29 AM Reply	I remember my dad accurately predicting Prop 13 would destroy CA schools. I graduated from high school out there in 1977, so that was my first year of college, which was tuition free at the time. If you bought a parking permit and library card (not required) at Long Beach City College, you paid a whopping $12.00 to take up to 18 credits (without those, the 18 credits were absolutely FREE). Dad was teaching at Millikan High School in Long Beach at the time. Some things that disappeared were California's high schools ranking among the best in the nation. I took Semantics, Linguistics, American Short Story, American Novel, European Short Story, and European Novel in high school. Not a damned chance of that now. But, hey, everybody gets to keep "their money" so it's all good.
Post #390,689 by mmoffitt 6/12/14 8:48:54 AM Reply	Why not provide all states with nukes, then? It seems to me that would solve Rand's suggested invasion of one state by another problem.
Post #390,693 by rcareaga 6/12/14 9:48:18 AM Reply	Why not? Because... ...because some of those fuckwits would use 'em, that's why. See the entry for "Gomorrah, Sodom and." Oklahoma would probably consider it a duty to take out San Francisco, that cesspool of degenerates and Democrats—but I repeat myself—with cleansing fire, and I don't doubt that the after-action report would be studded with scriptural apologia. Bring on the Rapture, motherfuckers. cordially,
Post #390,699 by mmoffitt 6/12/14 11:01:23 AM Reply	Since about 1983, ... my best friend has been saying, "Come on, comet!"
Post #390,692 by mmoffitt 6/12/14 9:39:11 AM Reply	But size and geographic proximity do. The money and power in this country are concentrated around the DC area (New York, Mass, Connecticut, but especially Manhattan). K Street in Washington is home to their cronies. Manhattanites know fsck all about life in rural America, and care even less. Since those monied interests drive everything the federal government does, the people not living in those vaunted halls of money and power have no representation to speak of in their federal government. I do not like anything about Indiana state politics but I must confess those politics are more in line with the majority of Hoosier values. Perhaps it is not size alone, but size and geographic proximity still seem to impose limits on how successful this government has been (and is) with regard to accurately responding to the wants, needs and values of its people.
Post #390,705 by gcareaga 6/12/14 12:33:17 PM Reply	The drowning northeast I have wondered for some time whether the future diversion of resources from the hinterlands to the swampy northeast corridor for the purpose of shoring it up against rising sea levels might become the proximate cause of national fission. As New Orleans and Houston and Miami and Sacramento drown, and taxes are levied to shore up Norfolk and DC and Manhattan and the Hamptons, there will come a tipping point. Unlikely, I admit. I don't see the status quo pertaining for another century.
Post #390,724 by Ashton 6/12/14 5:27:50 PM Reply	The triage following the first serious water intrusions.. cannot fail to catalyze all forces (already wanting to reorganize Everything) but demanding right NOW! Kid! Measured, erudite colloquy ... couldn't possibly survive the pent-up, festering discontent writ large, after whatever Ludicrous-grade storm. Maybe the Web would go dark, early-on? I wish not to Go There; we can't debate even while not-underwater.
Post #390,704 by rcareaga 6/12/14 12:22:41 PM 6/12/14 12:24:55 PM Reply	"Kampuchea...was briefly ruled by genocidal psychopaths" cough! Edited by rcareaga June 12, 2014, 12:24:55 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #390,721 by Ashton 6/12/14 5:04:31 PM Reply	Foul!! Before displaying such a visage, the decent person walks 20 paces ahead, wavng a black flag and SHOUTING: Horrific apparition! Horrific apparition!
Post #390,723 by rcareaga 6/12/14 5:15:47 PM Reply	in a more perfect word... a decent person holds the visage aloft bearing the legend "Hanged at The Hague for crimes against humanity" —dontcha think? cordially,
Post #390,737 by Ashton 6/12/14 8:03:50 PM Reply	(I truly Should... live so long.)
Post #390,741 by folkert 6/12/14 11:31:33 PM Reply	Much more apropos (and Fixed It For You) a decent person holds the visage aloft bearing the legend "Quartered Live at The Hague for crimes against humanity!" --me doth think? -- greg@gregfolkert.net "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." --Stanislaw Jerzy Lec
Post #390,728 by a6l6e6x 6/12/14 6:26:21 PM Reply	Where is my barf bucket? Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #390,732 by boxley 6/12/14 6:52:43 PM Reply	here ya go bucket :-) Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep

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