IWETHEY v. 0.3.0 | TODO
1,095 registered users | 0 active users | 0 LpH | Statistics
Login | Create New User
IWETHEY Banner

Welcome to IWETHEY!

New I reply seriously
This concerns me considerably. On principle, of course, this sort of thing could be extended and exploited to, for example, the reimposition of Jim Crow, as well as to sundry other nastinesses that would likely serve the oligarchic interests of late-stage capitalism. I like the practical aspects of federalism, including the "laboratories of democracy" notion so eloquently lampooned by Charles Pierce. State practices should align themselves over time to the national consensus. In 1950 there was probably a national consensus, albeit shaky even then, that the South ought to be free to continue its system of mandatory segregation. By 1970 that consensus was irretrievably shattered, and a then-sane Congress had moved to override state-level injustices. In 1970 there was likely a national consensus, nurtured for decades, against marijuana use. That consensus has in turn collapsed, notwithstanding dead-enders like yourself. Note that in this instance the Feds are not imposing authority in support of state enforcement actions, but rather withdrawing a countervailing authority in the face of popular decisions to ease up on former strictures.

It's complicated. I think that as we contemplate the practical application of representative democracy we are ill-served by an absolutist stance; better off with a certain flexibility of outlook. What best serves human freedom? Bill Buckley in 1957 held that civil rights were an imposition on the freedom of southern whites:
The central question that emerges . . . is whether the White community in the South is entitled to take such measures as are necessary to prevail, politically and culturally, in areas in which it does not prevail numerically? The sobering answer is Yes — the White community is so entitled because, for the time being, it is the advanced race. It is not easy, and it is unpleasant, to adduce statistics evidencing the cultural superiority of White over Negro: but it is a fact that obtrudes, one that cannot be hidden by ever-so-busy egalitarians and anthropologists.
Today we also see the collapse of the former consensus against legally-sanctioned homosexual partnerships, a development regarding which you have lamented at some length. Many states formerly erected legal barriers to miscegenation, these being overturned in Loving v. Virginia. Without addressing where you stand on interracial couplings, what is your take on that 1967 decision? Intolerable trespass on the rights of the Commonwealth of Virginia, or a blow for justice?

Again, I am troubled by the nullification tendencies we've seen in recent American politics, and worry about marijuana legalization getting too far ahead of the curve. I don't pretend to know the answer. But I do know that this is the face of the worst elements of nullification:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/John_C_Calhoun_by_Mathew_Brady,_1849.png

cordially,
New I'll remove my tongue from my cheek and respond.
I'll answer your direct question, but I want to (again and hopefully for the last time) refute yet another misrepresentation of my position. Specifically, you write:
Today we also see the collapse of the former consensus against legally-sanctioned homosexual partnerships, a development regarding which you have lamented at some length.
I have absolutely not "lamented" legally sanctioned homosexual partnerships. Nor have I ever held that such partnerships should not afford all rights, responsibilities and entitlements that marriages provide. The only thing I have lamented is the use of the same noun to describe two different relationships. My great friend of the last 35 years also strongly encouraged me to change my position on that topic, but even he, in the end, agreed that a homosexual relationship and a heterosexual relationship are not the same relationship. I then asked him why he wanted to use the same noun to describe the two distinct relationships and he said, in essence, that if we didn't, some people would see one as inferior to the other (Aside: he's known me personally long enough to know that I was not in this imagined group). I still think it's stupid to use the same noun for two different things but that in no way should be taken to mean that I believe that homosexual relationships should have any lessened rights and/or privileges vis-a-vis marriage. I know I've said "with the possible exception of adoption" because, well, I think the jury's out on if and/or how being raised in a same-sex household would impact kids. Of course, the next generation is screwed anyway. I recently discovered that more children will live through their family's bankruptcies than will live through their parents' divorce. But I digress.

I believe the Loving decision correct but have always been troubled by the hyperbole with respect to the institution of marriage in the decision. Warren wrote, "Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man', fundamental to our very existence and survival" but the cited opinion said (emphasis mine), "Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race." Warren appears to be making the presumption that marriage implicitly implied procreation (interestingly, I took some heat for making the same presumption). But I disagree with his interpretation of Douglas in Skinner. I read Skinner as saying reproduction is a fundamental right. The fact that most often occurs as a consequence of marriage is why marriage was even mentioned. I do not believe that marriage in and of itself can ever rightly be considered a civil right. I'd be open to the idea that procreation in and of itself is a civil right, but marriage on its own? I find the idea ludicrous.
New Marriage: my solution on record
Probably here somewhere; if not, elsewhere.

We abolish "marriage." Instead, going forward, it's "New Marriage" and "Marriage Classic." The former takes in all the stuff that makes the traditionalists squeamish, and the latter the elements your grandparents would feel comfortable with. With luck we get to the point where your social heirs of 2060 will growl "I don't care what they do as long as they don't call it 'Marriage Classic.'"

cordially,
New See only one flaw in this self-evidently sane solution:
it's too fucking-sensible!

A common conundrum here, of course--but in this case, n-thousands have framed their entire strategy around intransigence, and (I merely suppose)
some legions are in this in order to Win-over-them, not merely be pronounced "Right"-er. Or {shudder} "Equals".

On the ballot, I'd bet this would win in many States.. even U.S. ones; maybe enough?
(We should not here discuss "Diet Marriage", to complete the flavorful panache.)
New Meh.
Seriously. :-)

The only thing I have lamented is the use of the same noun to describe two different relationships. My great friend of the last 35 years also strongly encouraged me to change my position on that topic, but even he, in the end, agreed that a homosexual relationship and a heterosexual relationship are not the same relationship. I then asked him why he wanted to use the same noun to describe the two distinct relationships and he said, in essence, that if we didn't, some people would see one as inferior to the other (Aside: he's known me personally long enough to know that I was not in this imagined group). I still think it's stupid to use the same noun for two different things but that in no way should be taken to mean that I believe that homosexual relationships should have any lessened rights and/or privileges vis-a-vis marriage.


We've been through how marriage has changed over the centuries before, so I won't belabor the point, but I do want to push-back again.

For instance - http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/5809/how-are-concubines-different-than-wives

In Genesis, a union between man and woman is described as just a commitment that two people make to live together, help each other, "be fruitful and multiply." Isaac brought Rebecca "into his tent," and she became his wife, so in their case, marriage is initiated between a couple when they engage in sex. Afterwards, they are understood as being bound to each other, and thus living in a marriage. This is understandable, since biblical times had a very different view of sex than what we see in modern society.

This is why I ask about the difference between what a wife is and what a concubine is in biblical times. Since a marriage ceremony is never described in the Bible, what qualities would make a concubine different than a wife?

Those are two different labels, so is it just suggesting a social status difference? A handmaid, even if she took up permanent residence with one man, would never be a "wife", only a "concubine"?

Bilhah and Zilphah are described as Jacob's "concubines", and Rachel and Leah are described as "wives", although the children from all four women are equal since they all become the twelve tribes. So why not call Rachel and Leah's handmaids wives?


That's just one example.

Treating the word "marriage" as some inviolable term that 'everybody knows' and has a universally-agreed meaning is where you go off the rails. Either everybody's marriage, whether they were 18 and school sweethearts, or 75 and met at Atlantic City on a wild weekend, or have 19 kids, or are sterile (voluntarily or not), or marry once, or marry 6 times (sequentially, not concurrenly ;-), they all need to be treated equally. Otherwise, it creates "separate but equal" and nothing in that type of arrangement is ever equal.

"Equal but" is not Equal.

Societies change. Words change. That's a good, but sometimes annoying, thing. Because "Stasis = Death".

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New double down on your meh :-)
you notice that it is men who own the term marriage? Zilpha might heartily object to the term concubine, she may have preferred the term favored wife
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 59 years. meep
New s/separate but equal/different but equal/. FIFY. ;0)
New Never fly...
Separate but Equal not Different but Equal are ever going to work no matter the subject.

Since I can't read drivel (or not drivel... I don't know) from the parent post.
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
"No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." --Stanislaw Jerzy Lec
New It seems that your post has wakened a sleeping-LRPD
I fell in love with my manservant, who was
actually the disguised twin sister of the
man that my former love secretly married,
having mistaken him for my manservant who
was wooing her on my behalf whilst secretly
in love with me.


ie. In a zeitgeist of n+1 genders (some in transition) ... maybe merely [ ONE!!!!! Marriage-title ] is approaching its sell-by date?
And I've always wondered if Gawd has a belly-button: a significant datum if one is positing Tribes-of-Gawds,
maybe as occasionally befuddled, individually? as is our Homo-Shoot-in-Foot species.

(Let alone: is He a She? or Both?? and.. what about Mrs. G.??) If that belly-button means what it means.

I so confused.
     "House Votes to End Medical Pot Prosecutions" - (rcareaga) - (10)
         Well, I'll be. You've become a "State's Rights" supporter. - (mmoffitt) - (9)
             I reply seriously - (rcareaga) - (8)
                 I'll remove my tongue from my cheek and respond. - (mmoffitt) - (7)
                     Marriage: my solution on record - (rcareaga) - (1)
                         See only one flaw in this self-evidently sane solution: - (Ashton)
                     Meh. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                         double down on your meh :-) - (boxley)
                         s/separate but equal/different but equal/. FIFY. ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                             Never fly... - (folkert) - (1)
                                 It seems that your post has wakened a sleeping-LRPD - (Ashton)

I'd probably enjoy it, actually.
48 ms