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New The problem with piano...
... is what it does to the kids.

The kids who win the piano competitions and (rarely) continue on in piano through college and (very, very, very rarely) actually persist far enough to become a concert pianist are invariably the children of parents who push them extremely hard when they're young to the exclusion of all else.

The competition-winning kids around here are forced by their parents to practice 5-6 hours a day, minimum, according to my son's piano teacher.

Now, my son is an excellent musician and pianist at 9. He's extraordinarily bright and he can pick up new techniques, approaches, and musical ideas nearly instantly; this is all from his teacher, not from me as a parent. According to her, if he were to practice at least 3 hours a day he could win one of the local competitions against the 5-6 hour a day kids, and if he did the 5 hours a day he's got a chance to be a Yuja.

But we won't do that to him. If we did, he'd miss baseball, kung fu, nature walks, pleasure reading, LEGO, you name it. All of the things that make life rewarding for a young boy of 9. All for the chance to be a famous pianist to the exclusion of all else. Or more probably, burn himself out and hate the instrument for the remainder of his life.

We asked him if that's what he wanted to do. Predictably, no. He enjoys piano, but he'd like to do the other things too.

And we're fine with that.
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
New Unfortunately, it takes more than practice.
It takes a real feeling for the music and where you're going with it. There are no instructions for that.

Parents who push their kids that way are like the Renaissance parents who cut their kid's balls off on the chance he'd become a famous (and very wealthy) castrato. Very, very few succeeded.

Yes, the kids who practice so much can win competitions. At that age, kids aren't expected to be "Musicians" (capital "M"), they're judged on technique.

Contrast Yuja Wang with young Chinese pianist Lang Lang. He's a sensation on technique, but has a deficient feel for the music, and gets little respect among the cognoscente. As one put it, "He plays a lot of notes". Yuja Wang is very much respected for her interpretation and understanding of the music.

A less severe case is Medori - a famous child prodigy on the violin, but had a difficult time transitioning to being a mature musician. She got steamrolled by Sara Chang. Her more recent recordings are much better, but she lost momentum and now spends most of her time teaching at USC.

New Exactly.
These kids will be pushed to become technically accomplished at something they don't have the soul for.

My son has the real feeling; he's just lacking the extreme practice hours necessary.

He recently did a competition just to see what it was like, one that was actually based as much on musical ability as technique. The other kids were *all* Asian, with tiger moms in tow, playing 5 minute long pieces with "too many notes". One ~9yo had to be cut off by the judges at 10 minutes. My son was in there for a grand total of 2 minutes, but he was also the only one enjoying himself and not looking like he was about to sick up from the pressure and anxiety. :-)
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
New So how'd he do?
The answer to which, by the way, I expect to say more about the judges than about the kids.
--

Drew
Expand Edited by drook April 26, 2013, 01:35:13 PM EDT
New Didn't place, and wasn't expected to
Technical skills count for a lot at this age, as Andrew mentioned, and you have to reach a certain bar to be considered for the musicality.
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
New Probably a blessing in disguise.
If things come too easy for too long, it can be crushing when the inevitable failure hits. (Peaking too soon can be a life-long curse.) This way he got to see what is necessary for him to win if he decides he wants to continue to compete, and he can decide on his own whether it's worth it.

Cheers,
Scott.
(Who had lots of lessons about failure as a kid. ;-)
New Precisely
That's why his teacher suggested he enter the competition.

However, my 9yo has very little issue with failure. He shrugs it off and runs back in for more whether he won or lost. He's already making plans for next year's competition.
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
New Good choice
If I followed my sister and stayed in ballet I'd be in a wheelchair right now. Sure, I'd have about 10 years of bony toys and glory, but I'd have flamed out big.
New Mental image of Crazy in a tutu
--

Drew
New too early, my first thought was mumu, could see that
then realized that a tutu was not a mumu, not sure I would want to see that
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New Sorry
Standard uniform was white t-shirt, black tights, and ballet slippers.

When performing, would wear "period" costume, such as 1800s russian for the Nutcracker.
New Tiger Moms
While it is still Politically Incorrect to admit such things in intellectural or political circles, there is probably some deep racial difference in kid's acceptance and reaction to Tiger Momism.

An example of such things:  

Back in the late Hippie Days, a lot of young Whites were trying to become Indians. Both Indian and Asian babies accepted the cradle board. White babies simply would not, no matter how hard their parents tried to be Indians. White babies would struggle and scream their heads off until released from the bindings.

This point was noted by both Whites and Indians, and recorded in writings of the time. This is probably unfindable on the Internet, since the Internet is almost totally blind to stuff going on before 1984 - but I was there.

New Well.. The Maharishi (Mahesh Yogi) did visit LB er, L
and I appointed Self his escort: the guy had a BS (at least..) in physics!
As we walked under the (injector) Linac, I asked how he thought these physics machines fit-into 'things'..
Don't recall his answer/either inscrutable or ... unmemorable in any case.
At end of tour, he gave me a red rose (evoking awwws/or Ah!s {{couldn't tell}} from his cortege of young students of the esoteric Arts.

But at least these experimenting-yout were Alive, then: alive-enough to see how disgusting was the entire Vietnam matter,
from the bogus gunboat episode invented by LBJ.. until 4-26-2013. They and I marched, in addition to other agitations.
Now NOBODY ..much does more than natter about the dismantling of civil and other liberties / the criminal bankers and yada.

Lotta stuff has flowed down the river since that Inflection Point [mid-1968] when the RFK assassination left us all to the tender mercies of RMN.
Who, asssuredly never heard of.. Æschylus, upon encountering RFK's monumental impromptu comments at a gathering: on the evening of MLK's assassination ... ...
The Negative Slope of Murica's "prospects" remains on-track [-], apparently asymptotic to -[1/0] if probability is linked to any facts since. :-/

Tiger Momism also harks back to Momism
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Philip_Wylie

..If anyone still recalls Wylie, in the TMI Age. I was apprised of his treatise(s) during post-HS summer, spent in Lewiston, ID (right across river from Clarkston [!] WA)
Wylie was triple-distilled vitriolic. Loved It.
Introduced by a then-thoroughly disenchanted /but laudably educated demi-manager in a local store.
(was pleased to notice that My mother shared none of these character defects--as in {{whew..}}
Momism.. it ain't Gone Away.
New Competitions
One lucky guy, don't remember his name, got eliminated from the final round of a piano competition, and it made his career.

Martha Argerich, always in demand for these things, was one of the judges. When this guy was eliminated, Martha got up, told the judges they didn't know what they were doing and she wanted no part of this sham - and walked out.

After this, everybody wanted to hear this guy.

When anyone makes the statement, "You can't have it all", I reply, "Clearly you don't know about Martha Argerich".
New Love.It.. the power of Words over BS of any stripe.



Law above fear, justice above law, mercy above justice, love above all.
New Excellent
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
New Wikipedia knows all. :-) Ivo Pogoreli is the guy.
http://en.wikipedia....87#Musical_career

Neat story. Thanks.

Cheers,
Scott.

New The problem with competitive piano...
is that it is a stupid idea.

There's nothing wrong with piano as art.

I find a lot wrong with it as some kind of athletic competition.

New My son thinks it's fun to play for judges
But he also likes to play just for the music alone.
Regards,
-scott
Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
New Second your First!
'Competition' is what's supposed to Justify ... the dog-eat-dog infra-world of Vulture Capitalism--the only creatures who Love such dog-eating contests.

(A close second? FOR-Profit Medical Care? Oh, I could go on..)



Law above fear, justice above law, mercy above justice, love above all.
New Re: The problem with competitive piano...
Brenda here,

I'm reading a little ways back and enjoyed this thread on piano playing.

I agree that competition takes something out of the joy of playing the piano. But that joy has to be found by each individual on their own.

I started learning piano at 8 years old, my mom was a piano teacher. But then I discovered I could pick things up by ear, and quite well. Then I listened and played music for most of my life.

I could read some notes, mostly the ones actually ON the staffs, struggled with the ones too far above and below (still do, actually). But I didn't know what a chord was, really, just that I could play it. And I didn't know the difference between a half step and a whole step.

Then, ironically, on Mother's Day 2009, I got some books (the kinds for dummies and idiots) on piano and theory, and just like that, I finally read something that clicked and knew what a chord was and how to build it. I finally got the step process as well.

I was so excited, wanting to use this newfound knowledge, but as you may or may not remember, the day after Mother's Day that year, I fell and broke the turning bone in my elbow. So much for piano at that point.

Fortunately, the desire to know more stuck, and my arm was finally completely healed by 2011. (Although I can still overdo it when playing for 3 hours straight). I revisited this new concept of chords and steps, and a whole new world opened up for me regarding music.

I already had a job playing for the church, (listened and learned), but now I had notes and chords and could read the music better than ever before. So slowly, baby steps, I took that journey towards getting to understand it more.

I learned dynamics, I learned expression, I even learned alternate rhythm some. There are still many things I can't understand or get, but each new thing I discover makes it more rewarding every single day.

So the contest isn't about competing with someone else. For me, the contest was about competing with myself...i.e. getting better and better, learning a little more each day. And that contest isn't about how good you are, it's about how much you put into the music. How much of your heart and soul you put in, how much expression, how much emphasis.

After understanding that, I realized that all along, before I knew all this, I just "played" the piano. Now, I can P---L---A---Y the piano. And there's a huge difference.

For the record, Mom tried hard to force me to learn it when I was younger and started struggling...but I wasn't ready. Now I am.

Brenda

___________________________________________________________________
When asking God for a break, be sure to specify what KIND you want!
     "Be prepared to be surprised" - (Andrew Grygus) - (28)
         The problem with piano... - (malraux) - (20)
             Unfortunately, it takes more than practice. - (Andrew Grygus) - (15)
                 Exactly. - (malraux) - (14)
                     So how'd he do? - (drook) - (7)
                         Didn't place, and wasn't expected to - (malraux) - (6)
                             Probably a blessing in disguise. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                 Precisely - (malraux)
                             Good choice - (crazy) - (3)
                                 Mental image of Crazy in a tutu -NT - (drook) - (2)
                                     too early, my first thought was mumu, could see that - (boxley)
                                     Sorry - (crazy)
                     Tiger Moms - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                         Well.. The Maharishi (Mahesh Yogi) did visit LB er, L - (Ashton)
                     Competitions - (Andrew Grygus) - (3)
                         Love.It.. the power of Words over BS of any stripe. -NT - (Ashton)
                         Excellent -NT - (malraux)
                         Wikipedia knows all. :-) Ivo Pogoreli is the guy. - (Another Scott)
             The problem with competitive piano... - (TB D) - (3)
                 My son thinks it's fun to play for judges - (malraux)
                 Second your First! - (Ashton)
                 Re: The problem with competitive piano... - (Nightowl)
         Link to music - (crazy) - (6)
             Thanks.. and ... *Bravaaa* to this new Maestra! - (Ashton) - (5)
                 Speaking of Pictures at an Exhibition - (crazy) - (4)
                     Interesting.. provocative... - (Ashton) - (2)
                         And, if the Ravel orchestration doesn't do it for you . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1)
                             Thanks for the tip.. - (Ashton)
                     If this mixes well with your chemical peak . . . - (Andrew Grygus)

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