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New Ya gonna live to 200?
Unless there is a catastrphic meltdown we have enough tangible resources within our borders (gold, Diamonds, Oil Heavy metals etc) to last a couple of hundred years.
thanx,
Bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
New We do?
The US has great natural wealth, yes. It is not self-sufficient in, for instance, oil, but it has great wealth.

However it does not have wealth in line with what people today spend. Take a look at [link|http://www.prudentbear.com/archive_comm_article.asp?category=Credit+Bubble+Bulletin&content_idx=8782|this article] and then tell me how an economy whose manufaturing shrinks year after year, which manages to run up an annual trade deficit of over 400 billion dollars, and whose businesses are having trouble posting profits is managing to give banner years to imported cars (domestics are in the tank) and handily beat all records in real estate sales.

Personally I am shocked that the recession didn't turn nuclear. It should have. OTOH when I read through [link|http://www.prudentbear.com/archive_home_com.asp?category=18|this archive] of articles, it makes sense. I have seen those processes at work. That is the business that I deal with.

Since his examples are long, I will give the short version. When banks first came around, they would lend money to a lot of different people. That money would come around, land in someone else's hands, who would deposit it in the bank, and then the bank would lend it again.

That was a lot of fun, until there was a run on the bank, and a lot of people who thought that they had money didn't. In effect the banks had printed money by lending and relending it. There is no limit to what they can create this way, and as long as payments are made, and people think it works, the structure stands. But when confidence is lost, the entire pyramid collapses.

So various kinds of regulations were invented to prevent that. And the single most important one is that a bank has to keep on hand a fixed fraction of the deposits made into it. This provides a brake on how many times they can relend the same dollar, limiting the creation of money to managable levels. You see, they can only relend the money that has been deposited back, and they can only relend a fraction of it, so each time around the amount relent is reduced.

That is all ancient history. Now let's talk about securitizing debt.

Securitizing debt is the process of taking debt, and turning it into securities - financial instruments that people can trade. For instance a bundle of loans on homes can be bundled together and sold as bonds. (Bonds are a type of security.)

Now watch what happens now. Before how much and how often a bank could lend was constrained by deposits. But now the bank lends money, the loans are converted into bonds, the bonds are resold to investors, and the bank turns around with more money than it started with and makes more loans.

Isn't that a neat trick? If you deposit money in a bank, the bank can only relend part of it. But if you deposit your money in a pension fund, the fund can go to a bank, spend all of your money on bonds backed by some bank's loans, and that bank can now relend all of your money. Because it isn't called a deposit, the existing regulations are all circumvented, and there is no limit to how many times funds can be created.

How much has this happened? Enough that bonds backed by people's houses are now a bigger financial market than the entire US government debt. (Our personal savings rate is negative.)

Of course there are other transactions that can create money out of thin air as well. How many of those are there? Well for instance the swaps market (people trading future streams of cash with each other) is now 9 times the size of the US economy. In other words every dollar we will make has been traded 9 times already before it was made. (Need I mention that - on paper - trading money that doesn't exist yet makes huge amounts of cash in the present? That is one of the big reasons that people do it. Guess where that money came from?)

Wealth is not absolute. It is relative. We feel well off when what we can afford can exceed our expectations. While our natural resources may well put us well off compared to the rest of the world, it is unlikely to sustain us all in the manor to which we have become accustomed.

So when do things readjust?

I don't know. Possibly in 3 months. Possibly in 3 years. I sincerely thought it was about to happen a year and a half ago. It didn't.

But while I can't tell you when, I still believe that it will readjust, and I am willing to bet you that it happens within a decade.

Cheers,
Ben

PS US oil consumption is well beyond what we can produce, and projections are growing fast. Just a specific example of how the US resources don't match the current US lifestyle.
"... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything."
--Richard Feynman
New Thanks (again) Ben
for a nicely concise reminder of principles and how - legions immediately create ways of circumventing them. (And they call this roulette, 'business' ?)

As evidence of how seriously 'we' take this, as a society - note how regularly the Exec. dept. takes away huge options prior and bonuses.. during a company 'failure', and even after. Enron is merely the Popular current example of policies which have been lampooned umm most of my life? Then forgotten til the next repetition. Corporate 'law' in practice, could only be described as surreal, not to mention bogus.

Does the Priesthood of Econ publish something akin to that other Priesthood's, the J.A.M.A. ? Any idea if the points you made are expressed as starkly to.. wannabe MBAs? (I won't ask whether as, "a good scam to know" or as admonition against)

Sheep shearing - perhaps the only universal homo-sap pastime.



Ashton
..but what can one 'liquidate' ---> to ? 'cept to emulate the Survivalists (with or without the guns&ammo and that terrible jargon of grunts about "load and lock").
New Brilliant summation.
My father has a long, detailed parable in a personal wealth book about why Credit is such a trap and is, in the end, not really a good idea. Your description reflects this: Credit is money that has no value. It only works because everyone uses it as if it does.

Wade.

"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"

New I remember reading books in 1966
That describe this phenonema as a series of buckets partly filled with water and 20 guys sloshing water from one bucket to another and as long as the buckets are moving no one really knows how much water there is. It should have collapsed in the 80's I was surprised it didnt during the S&L's. There is a boat load of bad loans fictionally being carried as good. I think if we melt completely, bottom feeders would come out and we would start again but at a much lower level.
thanx,
bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
New Semantic games should be illegal
If the end result of the shenanigans is that they are passing out money they don't have, which is what the law is intended to prohibit, then it should also be prohibited. Calling it a "sale of bonds" instead of a "loan" is just semantics.

Another (smaller) example. Most (all?) states have laws capping the amount a bank can charge for an overdraft. But, if the bank the check is drawn on pays it instead of bouncing it, they can charge the account owner a "convenience fee" for covering the overdraft.

This is the same dodge they use with credit cards. Charges are, for the most part, never refused regardless of whether there is any credit left. They will just authorize the transaction and tack on some extra fees.

See [link|http://www.consumer-action.org/Library/CA_News/CA_News_Winter-1998-99_EN.html|here]:
To show how damaging it can be for someone trapped in a cycle of late fees and penalty rates, CA calculated approximately how much it would cost a hypothetical cardholder who carried a $2,000 balance, paid only the 2% minimum payment and did not meet the due date three times in six months.

The cardholder's payments were not on time in the second and third billing cycles, which led to two late fees ($25 each) and an increase in the cardholder's interest rate from 13% to 24%. In the sixth billing cycle, the cardholder paid late again, incurring another $25 late fee. By the end of six months, the cardholder's $2,000 balance had increased by $76 and he had paid $277 in interest and late fees.
or [link|http://www.reporternews.com/biz/cards1107.html|here]:
"This study is the first to reveal that in the last two years banks have imposed penalty rates and significantly increased fees," said Stephen Brobeck, executive director of the Consumer Federation of America, a Washington-based association of more than 260 pro-consumer groups. "Essentially what's happening is the issuers are shifting costs onto the most troubled debtors: those who have trouble making payments on time or may exceed the credit limit."
===
I can't be a Democrat because I like to spend the money I make.
I can't be a Republican because I like to spend the money I make on drugs and whores.
New But they aren't being dishonest
The people buying the bonds know exactly what is backing them. There are fairly extensive reporting requirements, and every bond holder knows both how much is required in defaults before they are hit, and has estimates from the rating agencies of the odds of that. (For investment grade bonds the odds are supposed to be 99.9% of paying off, for B-grade bonds they expect a 30-40% failure rate.) Everyone involved in the process is keenly aware that risk has not been reduced in any way, it has merely been reallocated from one bond to another. The purchaser gets to pick the risks - and returns - they feel comfortable with. ([link|http://www.criimimaeinc.com/corporate.asp|Sometimes] they feel comfortable with too much risk...)

When loans are made, the banks have cash on hand to make the loans. Again no dishonesty here.

And when the banks have deposits, those are backed by cash on hand, exactly as regulations require. Where financial institutions are supposed to also back up debts owed by cash, they generally do as well. (If they don't, that is a regulatory issue.)

No individual player is stepping outside of regulations or behaving unrealistically. The problem I see is an overall systemic one. Banking rules are designed to limit the amount of credit that can wind up extended total in the system. They no longer are performing that function as effectively as they used to. The result is an increase in leverage to levels that historically were regarded as unwise and unhealthy.

Let me give a specific example. Life insurance companies make loans on commercial real estate. If they hold those loans, they are legally obligated to hold at least 3% of the value of those loans in cash on hand. If they convert those loans into bonds, sell some, and keep others, regulations say that they have to back those bonds with 0.3% cash on hand.

In other words when a life company like John Hancock goes from holding loans on its books, to passing loans into bonds, 2 things happen. The first is that with a given amount of cash on hand, they can hold 10 times as much debt. The second thing is that the cycle from making a loan to getting their money back shortens from 10 years to a few months. So, subject to the availability of people willing to buy the bonds, they can issue loans over 20x as fast with the same cash on hand, hold 10x the debt long term, and they lose all limits on how many loans they can make in the long term.

The result? A staid financial institution turns into a mean, lean lending machine, a small minority of the market gets the vast majority of the risk (and return), while the total amount of money available to lend goes up. This is a process that has happened for a lot of kinds of loans. It has happened to a different extent for different kinds of loans, but the result is an ongoing fundamental restructuring in our economy of who ultimately issues credit and how much credit they can issue.

Cheers,
Ben
"... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything."
--Richard Feynman
New Summary of the summary of the summary.
"Credit is ba-a-ad, mm'kay?"

:-)

Wade.

"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"

New But that isn't true
Credit is a necessary part of capitalism. It is how we pay for things now that we know will make money in the future. (Eg Getting an education, moving from renting to owning a home, getting a car when that transportation is needed to hold down a job.) The ability to translate into the present that which you have good reason to believe that you can earn allows people to take advantage of opportunities that result in us all being better off.

The problem is that excessive credit is a Bad Thing. A loan at the right time is a great enabler. When it enables economically productive activity, this is Good. It is also good when it allows us to weather minor crises that we didn't have resources set aside for. But when we have a lifestyle based on credit, there is an enormous hidden cost. When we have an economic system where credit is overextended, there is risk to our monetary system.

Cheers,
Ben
"... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything."
--Richard Feynman
New Something else that effects the economy is cash
there is a huge amount of goods trading in cash and convertables. I think this portion of the unmeasured economy has been propping up the measured one. Look at the downtown sky in Miami, no industry to speak of, a shipping and transport hub to the south and tourists, yet the building boom hasnt stopped yet. Loans made by offshore banks that are washing money and shell games to cover losses.
thanx,
bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
New Okay, yes, you're right.
It is dangerous to simplify too far, which is what I obviously did. I'm sorry. The discussion is indeed about excessive credit and unfettered credit and misuse of credit, all of which can and do cause problems in an economy.

You'll have to forgive me for overreacting somewhat; although I have a credit card, I have never found it difficult to spend less than I earn.

Wade.

"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"

     Some folks are catching on - (boxley) - (37)
         The smoke&mirrors squishy underbelly of Econ 'theory'___:-\ufffd -NT - (Ashton)
         And the biggest risk is... - (ben_tilly) - (31)
             Ya gonna live to 200? - (boxley) - (10)
                 We do? - (ben_tilly) - (9)
                     Thanks (again) Ben - (Ashton)
                     Brilliant summation. - (static)
                     I remember reading books in 1966 - (boxley)
                     Semantic games should be illegal - (drewk) - (5)
                         But they aren't being dishonest - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                             Summary of the summary of the summary. - (static) - (3)
                                 But that isn't true - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                     Something else that effects the economy is cash - (boxley)
                                     Okay, yes, you're right. - (static)
             Interesting side note to all this. - (inthane-chan) - (19)
                 No son, you have no choice - (boxley) - (1)
                     Interesting read, but that's not what I meant. - (inthane-chan)
                 You haven't been current on how money works... - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                     I just wasn't clear in my post. - (inthane-chan) - (9)
                         Not so easy. - (static)
                         What Wade said - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                             Ah, got it. - (inthane-chan)
                             There are some big misunderstandings here.... - (neelk) - (5)
                                 No misunderstanding - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                     Re: No misunderstanding - (neelk) - (3)
                                         I may have a narrowly focussed view - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                             Re: I may have a narrowly focussed view - (neelk) - (1)
                                                 What kind of real estate loans? - (ben_tilly)
                 Ft. Knox - (Silverlock) - (5)
                     In the Bond flic - (Ashton) - (4)
                         Silver xbars? kinda low meltpoint? - (boxley) - (1)
                             Not really. - (static)
                         Hollywood? HOLLYWOOD? - (Silverlock) - (1)
                             Apologies to UK, Pinewood et al - dumbth :( - (Ashton)
         The Economist on the strong dollar - (admin) - (3)
             Mind posting a synopsis? -NT - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                 Yep, I do. - (admin) - (1)
                     Dang. -NT - (ben_tilly)

Ah yes, "Lambicus cetafermentum", otherwise known as the Greater Belgian Whale.
76 ms