Post #33,513
3/26/02 3:45:13 PM
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Conditions in USSR
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have a newsflash for you. Most of the citizens of the USSR were NOT personally threatened by their government. Only the ones that stepped out of line, politically, verbally, whatever.
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This is what I find amazing about you folks. You keep on gabbing about USSR and how people felt there, and you don't understand it. At all.
EVERYONE in that cursed place was PERSONALLY threatened by the governement all the time. Everyone's behavior was changed due to that threat. There were things you could not do, dared not say, dared not think due to fear of governement. I am not talking crime. How many of you would even think of governement before joining an investment club? My mom would. How many of you would consider governement's opinion before going to a concert? My grand-mother was deathly afraid when I went to hear a Russian rocker in my own high school, in the middle of Perestroika.A teacher of literature went pale when somebody suggested we study a certain Russian dissident poet (she got fired for such studies before, could not work for 15 years).
You simply forget that the "line" was going right across your daily lives. In a very real sence, it was impossible to live w/o stepping over it. In 70s, 80% of meat in our house was procured illegally, from black market. My mom did it so that I could have meat every day, not once a week. It was not expensive. But it was illegal.Do you think if governement when you go to a supermarket?
I could rant forever... Stuff like this just pisses me off. Remeber that cartoon, published shortly after 9/11? Where an immigrant from Iraq tels FBI guys who picked him up for a "friendly chat" about how US is getting to be just like his old country? Bullshit! In his old country, he wouldn't dare to peep in the presence of almighty Secret Police, or any police at all. Yes Sir! Immediately, Sir! Or, if you are a dissident - just silence. This cartoon disproves its own premise better that any speech I could have made.
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Post #33,528
3/26/02 4:47:57 PM
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Check my point.
I said: I have a newsflash for you. Most of the citizens of the USSR were NOT personally threatened by their government. Only the ones that stepped out of line, politically, verbally, whatever. If you toed the line, you lived without any problems. I only have the reports from the USSR and my experience in East Berlin to go from. You had black market meat? You stepped over the line. How many of you would even think of governement before joining an investment club? Hmmm, private investment? In the USSR? Not something I'd recommend. They did have to maintain their Communistic rhetoric. We have more freedom here. As you've noted, we can study what we want (what was that about the government being able to check your library reading list), say what we want (I won't even go into this one right now), invest where we want (just make sure that there aren't any ties to terrorist organizations there), and so on. You simply forget that the "line" was going right across your daily lives. And I'm watching people trying to push that line further into our lives here. Bullshit! In his old country, he wouldn't dare to peep in the presence of almighty Secret Police, or any police at all. Yes Sir! Immediately, Sir! Or, if you are a dissident - just silence. This cartoon disproves its own premise better that any speech I could have made. We now have an unknown number of people in prison in this country who are not allowed to talk to their lawyers. Who have not been charged. And so on. We're not yet as bad as the USSR was, but we're starting down that road. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
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Post #33,550
3/26/02 8:27:26 PM
3/26/02 8:29:31 PM
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Listen to him
>>If you toed the line, you lived without any problems. I only have the reports >>from the USSR and my experience in East Berlin to go from.
Would it hurt to recognise that guy might know what he's talking about?
-- William Shatner's Trousers --
Edited by Mike
March 26, 2002, 08:29:31 PM EST
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Post #33,600
3/27/02 11:53:26 AM
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Read what I said and what he said.
I said that if you toe the line, you have nothing to worry about.
He said that his family dealt with the black market.
Oooooh... Seems that they weren't toeing the line.
That's why they were afraid.
Which is my point.
The same as in the US.
Except here, you can perform LEGAL acts (like registering to vote for a political party) and have the government start a file on you (reference my earlier post from the FBI's website).
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Post #33,715
3/28/02 12:40:10 PM
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Re: Check my point.
>>>>>>>>>>
If you toed the line, you lived without any problems. I only have the reports from the USSR and my experience in East Berlin to go from.
You had black market meat? You stepped over the line.
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You have no idea how mad you make me. Did you hear what I said at all? People in Leningrad and Moscow would have no meat if they "toed the line". People outside that blessed region would simply starve. Everybody who managed to live had to be guilty. The whole economic system was based on people breaking law or policy. There was no other way to get anything done.
By trying to portray US as getting close to USSR you are doing a disservice to your own cause. People may end up thinking: "Well, if it was just a little bit different in USSR, and they did have security - may be it was not such a bad idea after all?" YOu better keep reminding them what they have here, and how little they have lost so far compared to what they have to lose.Yes, fight for every little bit, but do not pretend that you almost lost it all.
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Post #33,738
3/28/02 1:52:33 PM
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I do see that point.
And you are among two (three?) here who have direct experience - which the rest of us lack entirely.
Yes, from that angle.. it ISN'T "BAD" here, nor anywhere near-to what you have described. What I think that no one can predict is: how slippery that slope? There are numerous modern instances around the world of revolutionary-change occurring virtually overnight, as a new regime seizes power. The necessity of daily lying in the service of this or that Corporation: prepares us for the kinds of daily 'lying' you describe. We rarely expect to be told anything without large or extra-large spin attached. This is mind conditioning, if there ever were such a thing.
As to the major differences between US and 'those others' - for our being the most intricately structured society ever, with interdependencies of mind-boggling complexity (think only if.. trucks could not roll every day?): so are we most vulnerable to all those 'unanticipated consequences' of any truly chaotic development.
THEN.. would come the, "we must have lawn'order now at any price" lest cities starve etc. Surely Moscow, Leningrad were a microcosm of how such a catastrophe manifests.. (And yes, I'm somewhat acquainted with the Leningrad siege. That was during war, of course).
There's always a danger of exaggeration of perils; still, the ovine acceptance we have seen of the precursors of "tightening up" are, I think - no cause for great optimism either. We cannot know how much further rationing of civil rights would result in (finally) a bunch of 2x4's upside the head of the major offending pols - but thus far, there appears to have been only grumbling among the few.
It is the easy acceptance of the ludicrous acronyms like {ugh} the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. bill, and the evident agenda of others all here know about (DMCA etc.) - acceptance of what amounts to further consolidation of Corporate governance via outright purchase of writing their own windfalls: this is what I believe signals the complaisance of the US 'Consumer' to date.
Erwache! was on every Nazi guidon flag in those massive processions all have seen: "Awaken". Of course the Nazis meant something quite different.. but the principle holds.
Ashton
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Post #33,742
3/28/02 2:08:36 PM
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An effective system vs an ineffective system.
You have no idea how mad you make me. Did you hear what I said at all? People in Leningrad and Moscow would have no meat if they "toed the line". That's the fact. And I recall Boris getting pissed that his own mother couldn't get medicines that she needed. Even though such were readily available here. People outside that blessed region would simply starve. Everybody who managed to live had to be guilty. The whole economic system was based on people breaking law or policy. There was no other way to get anything done. Well, you were there. But I do find it fascinating that the black market could feed so many people who would have otherwise starved. Just the logistics alone are impressive. People may end up thinking: "Well, if it was just a little bit different in USSR, and they did have security - may be it was not such a bad idea after all?" Yep. There are people who are that stupid. YOu better keep reminding them what they have here, and how little they have lost so far compared to what they have to lose.Yes, fight for every little bit, but do not pretend that you almost lost it all. I don't think I've ever said that they've lost it all. -BUT- We now have LEGALLY detained hundreds (thousands?) of individuals WITHOUT allowing them the basics guaranteed by our laws. No one (outside of the government) knows how many there are or who they are. In Russia, it took a revolution to put the "Communists" into power. Here, you're witnessing a decline from a free state to a totalitarian state. One step at a time.
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Post #33,748
3/28/02 2:31:26 PM
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Good comment, Arkadiy!
From what my father told me, in the 1930's parents had to be careful what they said in front of their children at home. The "little heroes" would get their parents arrested and shipped off to Siberia.
Alex
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think." -- Neils Bohr (1885-1962)
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