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New Nice assumptions
"... cost to comply with taxes and regulations ... a hostile government that doesn't want you there ..."

First, let's separate taxes and regulations and admit that mostly what they're talking about is regulations. There are going to be taxes no matter where they go.

Now the regulations they're talking about are the ones saying you can't pollute the local environment, and you can't poison your employees. If that equates to "they don't want us here", what he's saying is he doesn't know how to do business without polluting the environment and poisoning his employees.

As I keep saying, the solution is not to allow them to do that here, but to not allow products to be sold here that were made that way. That's just offshoring the pollution along with the profit. We don't allow people to sell clothes here manufactured by child labor, why should EPA and OSHA laws be any different?
--

Drew
New im sure thats exactly what he meant drook
no reason we should think he might have a legitimate concern is there.
New Then what is it? The specific concern?
You've seen the warning labels and inserts on products. Three pages of what not to do: Don't use the circular saw in the bathtub; don't use the chainsaw on the branch you're sitting on; don't use varnish as a hair-care product. Every one of those warning represents something that someone did, and the company is protecting itself from lawsuits.

Now look at regulations that companies face trying to build factories in the U.S. Every one of those regulations started out as something that a company tried to do, and they have to be specifically told not to.

Cost of compliance is too high? For small companies, yes. You need a full-time legal staff to be sure you're in compliance. Here's an idea: Index the fines to the company revenues, so the cost of non-compliance is relative to what you're doing.

Eg: A backyard mechanic dumps oil down the storm drain? Fine him a week's revenue -- $1,000 dollars per incident -- plus cleanup costs. BP dumps oil into the Gulf of Mexico? $4.7 billion per incident plus cleanup costs. Oh, and "incident" is defined as one day they were doing it. So 84 days * $4.7 billion = $394.8 billion. Plus cleanup.

I think it's appropriate that the more benefit you get from the system, the more you owe to it if you fuck up.
--

Drew
New Nit on warning labels
The fact that is says "Don't X" doesn't mean somebody tried X. It means that either somebody tried X or somebody in the company considered the possibility that somebody might try X.

Tech writers (and apps engineers and others) are paid to think of stupid things customers might do before they actually do them. And we know better than to say "but nobody would ever..."

It's Fun!
---------------------------------------
I think it's perfectly clear we're in the wrong band.
(Tori Amos)
New so before any drilling is done
a $394.8 billion payment is required as a cleanup deposit. You are a good regulator there drook. You could regulate a company out of business faster than obama. We dont need no stinkin jobs unless they are gummint stinkin jobs.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 55 years. meep
New Government enabled.
a member of the government forced that labeling by forgetting a concept called contributory negligence in exchange for a concept called strict liability.

It used to be that if you used your hairdryer in the bathtub, the court could call you an idiot and dismiss the suit. Now, if the company doesn't specifically forbid it in labeling, the base assumption is your so stupid that you are going to do it...and the company should be forced to pay you millions for your stupidity.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
New Not quite right.
IANAL.

However, http://en.wikipedia....#Strict_liability

Rather than focus on the behavior of the manufacturer (as in negligence), strict liability claims focus on the product itself. Under strict liability, the manufacturer is liable if the product is defective, even if the manufacturer was not negligent in making that product defective.


It seems to me the important word in that excerpt is "defective".

http://www.scribd.co...ls-Out-of-Control

No matter which theory is used in a failure-to-warn defect case, proximate cause is still a critical component that must be proven in all products liability suits, including failure-to-warn defect cases.12 Plaintiffs must demonstrate that (1) the defendant manufacturer, supplier, or seller knew or should have known of the dangers related to the product’s intended use; (2) the product’s user/consumer was reasonably unaware of these dangers; (3) the defendant manufacturer, supplier, or seller failed to exercise reasonable care to notify the user/consumer of the product’s unsafe condition or the facts which make the product prone to be dangerous; and (4) the risk and degree of harm was large enough to justify that a warning should have been provided.13 Moreover, to win a failure-to-warn defect case, plaintiffs must also convince the fact-finder that heeding the warning would have prevented the injury.14 Accordingly, failure-to-warn defect cases may be predicated on “(1) the absence of a warning, (2) the inadequacy of the warning given, or (3) the absence or inadequacy of instructions in the safe use of the product.”15


IOW, common sense still has a place in the law - believe it or not.

I'd be very surprised if there were real, successful, lawsuits in which, say, someone stuck their head in a cement mixer and complained that they were injured because the instructions didn't say "do not stick head inside this cement mixer". Similarly, I haven't been able to find any real cases of people suing for electric shock after using a hairdryer in the bathtub. Instead, there are voluntary standards - http://www.cpsc.gov/...ub/pubs/5037.html

But, again, IANAL.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Shows what I get for using an analogy
You want to focus on what's wrong with the analogy.

The point was to compare the existence of warnings with the existence of laws: Nobody wants them, but they're all there because someone "needs" to be told.

With warning labels, the "need" is driven by lawsuits and strict liability. Feel free to start a new thread to discuss what's wrong with that.

With laws, the "need" is driven by amoral corporations that have historically placed profits ahead of public safety. And where the fines are such a small fraction of the potential profits, they are seen as a cost of doing business, and not something worth complying with.
--

Drew
New HOT DAMN...
That is poignant! Exactly what I keep asking local business that off shore stuff.

Why should the US allow those product not made to our standards and regulations here?

I mean you are right about off-shoring the pollution and killing employees... if we don't tolerate it here, we shouldn’t tolerate products made without those same standard and regulatory standards to be imported and sold here.

Never happen, as we know all those mega corps that have mfgs in Korea, China, Taiwan, Bangladesh, etc... won't allow those bill/tariffs/laws get on the plate.

In any case the Tea Party woudl demonstrate exactly why things are going that way... for an example; Get government outta healthcare but keep your hands off my Medi-(cade|care)!
New Wrong assumptions...
First, let's separate taxes and regulations and admit that mostly what they're talking about is regulations. There are going to be taxes no matter where they go.


No, there aren't going to be taxes everywhere they go. Put that semiconductor factory in Penang and the government will waive taxes for up to 30 years. Nearly all SE Asia countries will operate this way.

And pollution and poisoning employees are NOT the only types of regulations that add to expense. And I would submit that about zero of the laws he is talking about have anything to do with real pollution. Just the cost incurred to weave your way through the conflicting rules, and the licensing authorities...then having to pay to build access roads, and maintain internal access roads to DOT standards, etc.... The US regulatory environment, you seem to think, is only there to "protect" us from evil business. Its actually there now pretty much to FUND government first, protect you second...and is at the point in places like CA where it is actually actively hostile to manufacturing.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
New Not evil: amoral
A corporation has no morals, and no legal requirement to have any. Without regulations to restrain them corporations have every incentive to maximize gain at the expense of the environment and employees.

Leaving aside the question of whether regulations have gone too far, or whether there are regulations with other purposes than protecting the public good, do you disagree with that?
--

Drew
New No
Statement is too short term. There are also objectives around sustaining viability as a going concern and others that do counter short term profit max objectives. They do consider environmental impact and most certainly govern employees and the relationships.

Simple example. >Long term<, it benefits employers to keep and maintain a workforce with experience in >their< process and train them well. This is why you have corporate programs that cover college expenses for employees, and employees receive on the job training, etc. Is their a financial component to this, absolutely. Is it focussed on next months P&L, absolutely not. Would it be more profitable, short term, to eliminate these entirely, absolutely.

Full product costing from an eco-standpoint is a separate issue.

And leaving aside the question whether or not regulations have gone too far do take this off point quite substantially. Do I think we need a certain amount of regulation to ensure that companies operate responsibly towards workers and the environment, yes I do. I would also submit that most companies that have built offshore manufacturing have done so at standards that far exceed what local laws require, which would also be counter to your statement.

Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
New Sweeping generalization much?
The US regulatory environment, you seem to think, is only there to "protect" us from evil business. Its actually there now pretty much to FUND government first, protect you second...and is at the point in places like CA where it is actually actively hostile to manufacturing.


(Emphasis added.)

The combination of sweeping generalization and categorical handwaving in such a short comment is astounding to me.

Sheesh.

DiA at The Economist has an interesting commentary on regulation in the real world with real examples: http://www.economist...sm_and_regulation

[...]

That's my daughter swimming in the River Amstel. Inside city limits. How clean is the water? Well, I don't really know, which is why, for the first few days we were staying on our friend's houseboat, I didn't let her swim. Even though all the people on the other houseboats, and their kids, were doing it. Then a close friend came over with her eight-year-old son, who insisted on swimming, and it just became impractical to stop them. So what the heck. In fact, I'd tried to look up the official position on this question, and found that the government advises against swimming in rivers anywhere in the Netherlands, because of boat traffic and water current issues. But the thing is, as long as you don't do something gratuitously stupid or make a flagrant nuisance of yourself, nobody's going to stop you.

If I'd tried letting my daughter do this in, say, the Potomac River in Washington, DC, I would have likely been arrested. The reason you can do it in the Netherlands is that if anybody tried to sue the city of Amsterdam because they or their child had been injured while swimming in the river, the suit would almost certainly be dismissed. (One woman is in fact suing the city because her 19-year-old son drowned at an unofficial beach in 2004, but the issue is that it was a popular beach with hundreds of bathers and fast-food shacks that the city had allowed to operate for years without any official lifeguards or warning signs. Nevertheless, her suit was rejected by the Dutch courts; she's now appealing to the European Court in Strasbourg. This is the exception that proves the rule: it's much harder to win such a suit in the Netherlands than in the United States.) Essentially, you still have the freedom to swim in the river in Amsterdam because people assume you have the common sense to avoid stupid behaviour, like diving in when you don't know what's underneath, or not keeping to the sides of the river during barge traffic hours. And if you don't, it's nobody's fault but your own.

But there's another reason why I can let my daughter swim in the Amstel, and that is that I'm pretty sure that in a well-regulated country like the Netherlands, the water is reasonably free of heavy pollutants and raw sewage. (I would not, for example, let her swim in the Mekong.) This, I think, outlines a useful distinction between different kinds of regulation. I am perfectly capable of assessing for myself the risks of swimming across a small pond in Massachusetts, or the risks of swimming in the Amstel when lots of boat traffic is around. I don't need regulations to protect me; I have common sense. What I can't assess for myself is the risk that the water is contaminated by raw sewage. For that, I need a regulatory agency that stops households and businesses from polluting the river. To generalise: for risks I can assess myself, I don't want regulations that prevent me from doing as I please just because I might end up suing the government. For risks I can't assess myself, I do want regulations that give me the confidence to do as I please. One kind of regulation stops me from swimming in a pond in Massachusetts. The other kind lets me swim in a river in the Netherlands. One kind of regulation makes me less free. The other kind makes me freer.

I'm not saying the Netherlands has struck the right balance, overall, between freedom and regulation. On the commercial side, the Dutch feel themselves to be heavily over-regulated. But I do think the comparison helps to identify how regulation and freedom interact. And to pull back one more level, I think another thing that makes people feel freer to do things like swim in a river is the confidence that if anything goes wrong, they have health insurance. At that point you start to get into a broader discussion about the differences between what liberals and libertarians mean when they talk about being free.


But I'm sure you see the writer as being blinded to the fact that the "only" reason the Netherlands has regulations is to fund the overbearing, inefficient, corrupt government that is crushing business. Or something.

Oh, to pick some nits with the DiA piece, while swimming in the Potomac is not an "approved activity" and nominally illegal in the District, and it actually is prohibited by the National Park Service in some parks on the Potomac, it is highly unlikely one would be arrested if one did so - http://www.washingto...7071302079_2.html .

http://www.potomacri...id=145&Itemid=152

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New nice link
that shows that, DESPITE all of those regulations, the Potomac is still unsafe after a rainstorm due to problems with the GOVERNMENT utilities and failing infrastructure. Sure you want to use that to counter my point?

And no way in HELL you catch me swimming in an Amsterdam canal. I've lived there. It has nothing to do with losing a lawsuit against the government. Give me the Potomac after a rainstorm ANY DAY. At least I don't SEE the raw sewage going into the water, as opposed to watching the addicts take their dump into the water in Amsterdam.

And using an opinion piece as a counter to my opinion? There was no quote of any regulation or any direct comparison of regulations in one location versus another. So its just as fluffy.

And, just as a question, have you had any real construction work on your house done recently? Have you gone through the licensing and inspection process? Has your contractor told you, IN ADVANCE, to expect to pay for no less than 2 inspections for both fire and electric before completion, because he GUARANTEES failure the first time? Not because of poor workmanship...but simply because everyone fails the first inspection so the county board will get more money?

Do you not wonder what basis in fact these sweeping generalizations are founded upon?
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
New That's not what it says...
that shows that, DESPITE all of those regulations, the Potomac is still unsafe after a rainstorm due to problems with the GOVERNMENT utilities and failing infrastructure. Sure you want to use that to counter my point?


Um, it was worse before the regulations.

The Potomac's water problems have lots of causes (being fed by 3 jurisdictions, having 100+ year old military facilities, a 100+ year old mixed sanitary+storm sewer system in DC, rapid development in suburbs, lack of investment, violations of the Clean Water Act, etc.). Trying to turn it into a rant against some monolithic GOVERNMENT doesn't enlighten the situation.

https://www.dcwater....ip/stormwater.cfm

I'm sorry you've had trouble with your local officials.

Have you seen this? http://www.balloon-j...ng-pure-at-heart/ You think GOVERNMENT is bad, think about what it means when you (and your neighbors) don't have it.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Its not an either or
I'm not here praising anarchy, dude. Get that through your head.

Yes I think government is bad. It needs to be fixed..and by fixed I mean reigned in.
Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
New Um, that's been tried. Caused "Great Recession".
New really?
thats interesting.

no gov complicity at all in the problem, eh? no "priming the pump" to inflate the bubble, no pressure at all from them to put a home in every pocket.

I'm sure the government will do a fine job fixing everything. They always do.

(is the sign necessary?)

Sure, understanding today's complex world of the future is a little like having bees live in your head. But...there they are.
     on jobs, government and business - (boxley) - (18)
         Nice assumptions - (drook) - (17)
             im sure thats exactly what he meant drook - (boxley) - (6)
                 Then what is it? The specific concern? - (drook) - (5)
                     Nit on warning labels - (mhuber)
                     so before any drilling is done - (boxley)
                     Government enabled. - (beepster) - (2)
                         Not quite right. - (Another Scott)
                         Shows what I get for using an analogy - (drook)
             HOT DAMN... - (folkert)
             Wrong assumptions... - (beepster) - (8)
                 Not evil: amoral - (drook) - (1)
                     No - (beepster)
                 Sweeping generalization much? - (Another Scott) - (5)
                     nice link - (beepster) - (4)
                         That's not what it says... - (Another Scott) - (3)
                             Its not an either or - (beepster) - (2)
                                 Um, that's been tried. Caused "Great Recession". -NT - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                     really? - (beepster)

Let's get this party started...
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