Re: "The Holocaust, unique surely in scale and in so brief

Post #30,963 by a6l6e6x 3/5/02 11:53:45 PM Reply	Re: "The Holocaust, unique surely in scale and in so brief a time-span." Really? Then you never heard [link\|http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/ukra.html\|Ukraine famine of 1932-33.] The reference says 6-7 million people starved. I've read 8 million in other places. This is not fiction. My father literally walked around bodies in the street. Your buddy (Joseph Vissarionovich Djugashvili) Stalin did this while there was actually a good wheat harvest in the Ukraine. The method was different, the motivation was different, but not the results. More people killed in less time. Communism can be so efficient. But, nobody seems to know about it! Bad PR? Definitely no museum in Washington, D. C. I do not for a moment want to take anything away from what has been said about the Holocaust. While luckily not destined for extermination, just slave labor, my parents and I and one of two younger brothers survived a Nazi concentration camp and then a German work farm. But, the Holocaust was not exclusive to Jews you know. And, no one better deny the Holocaust in my presence. The skeletal faces of my parents on their Nazi issued ID cards are still fresh in my mind. No Hollywood movie about the subject you have ever seen have comes close to depicting the walking skeletons of the camps. It sucks big time to be oppressed, for whatever reason. What is my point? The Jews are not different. On the flip side, do you think "incursions" into "Arab-controlled areas" using F-16s, helicopter gunships, and tanks against the Palestinian Arabs who have no such weapons is different from the Nazi's invasion of say Poland which still had a cavalry? So you can have and keep their land? So you can brutalize and humiliate them because you are the master race? Give me a break. With the current government, Israel is morally bankrupt. I would be ashamed to be an Israeli. This is not to say there are none working for peace. But, they are a small minority. Alex "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." -- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
Post #30,979 by Ashton 3/6/02 6:12:15 AM Reply	You are right.. And there's no point in quibbling about +/- millions. Watcha you mouth though - Iosip no buddy of mine, nor do I imagine that what he wrought .. bore any slight resemblance to that 'communal' idea(l) - for which the species was and is: thus far emotionally incapable. 'Communism' - that it never was! Pure BS, that.. Fascism under rubric of 'social-ism'. What I don't recall (if I knew) was - whether the starvation was simply an "acceptable overhead" (to Stalin's vicious mind) for obtaining the grain - or his intent was overtly: to kill off a group he deemed undesirable. Nothing was beyond his warped mind. Whatever was that black motive, I'd still assert that the Jews are and ever were the Universal Pariah - as no Kulak or other ethnic from the Steppes could ever be (in the eyes of the world, generally). They appear to fulfill the need, from some defective gene in homo-sap - for a whipping boy for every current folly a group has created for itself (say, by the sort of Jingoistic rhetoric we are hearing daily - right now?) Note, as mmoffitt's post linked, in War forum (!) how we are daily told that ~"these guys mean to destroy us" [as if that were remotely possible!] and: it sells so far; excuses any next excess from the massive intellect of Dubya/Cheney, the [oil pipeline] twin entrepreneurs. And yes: the disparity in weaponry re Israel / Palestinians is quite like.. that in Afghanistan, no? In fact: no one in the world can come close to US armaments - by orders of magnitude. So.. Which of us is er least-immoral, then? Might is close enough to Right, if it's Our Might? Rationalizations. Endless hypocrisy to gain power and KEEP it. Not merely his-story but Our-story. Possible only after great damage has been done to language itself, via endless repetition of slogans and patent lies. Infotainment + circuses. Ashton who always wonders if we all Can survive the Mercantile mind, drugged into full-greed mode.
Post #31,007 by boxley 3/6/02 9:58:03 AM Reply	The Famine was to destroy the Kulaks Stalin wanted no part of small independant farmers with the history of fierce adherence to their land. The grain was shipped east in an effort to depopulate the Ukraine. I met with folks as a child that survived in the woods as partisans against the nazis and later the communists until escaping to the west. The Germans treated slavs as brutally as jews in a careless manner but the extermination of slavs by the nazis was not considered as paramount as the extermination of the jews. It is my heretical view that in order for the State of Israel to be created a Hitler was needed to provide the impetus for our home. Without Hitler the "independent" state of Israel would not exist. He does move in mysterious ways. thanx, bill There is no difference between a "settler," "soldier," "secular," or "Chassidic Jew." The target is the JEW. \ufffd Harvey Tannenbaum

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