Bye bye Pontiac

Post #307,799 by Another Scott 4/24/09 2:01:17 PM Reply	Bye bye Pontiac http://www.bloomberg...M&refer=worldwide April 24 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp., facing the threat of a bankruptcy filing if it can't meet a June 1 U.S. deadline, will preserve the GMC truck line and drop its 83-year- old Pontiac brand as part of a government-led recalibration of its business plan, people familiar with the decision said. The Detroit automaker will keep the GMC, Chevrolet, Cadillac and Buick brands, after a review that included profitability with the Obama administration's automotive task force, said the people, who asked not to be named because the decisions have not been announced. GM may reveal next week the end of the make that produced the Grand Prix, Bonneville and Firebirds, they said. [...] GM had already decided late last year to cut Pontiac to a niche brand, possibly with just one model, to sell alongside Buick and GMC in combined showrooms. To cut from its roster of eight U.S. brands, GM has said it will sell or shut Hummer, Saab and Saturn. [...] It's still too many brands, IMO. I'll disagree with Farago, here: http://www.thetrutha...ore-competencies/ As GM's journey to bankruptcy nears its conclusion, the punditocracy is busy contemplating the company's afterlife. The current line of thinking: the feds will cleave General Motors in two. Bad GM gets Buick, GMC, HUMMER, Pontiac, Saab and Saturn. Good GM "buys" Chevrolet and Cadillac. It emerges from Chapter 11 unencumbered by outdated production facilities, warring management, befuddled marketing, over-priced labor, restrictive union work rules, astronomical pensions and onerous health care obligations. Chevillac rises from the ashes to steal share from both mainstream and luxury brands, repay its debts and thumb its nose at Bailout Nation's critics. But here's the thing: good GM is "saving" the wrong brands. [...] IMO, GM probably just needs to be GM for a while - at least in the US. Picking the right brands to save isn't going to do it. They need to sell the few good cars and trucks that they have at a single type of store. They've got too much overhead from too many brands and they compete with each other too much. Once they get their feet under them for a while, then they can think about resurrecting the separate brands. GM's biggest problem is its deadweight of management culture. They need to act like a single company again, not, e.g., have GMC and Chevy selling trucks that compete with each other. Having a single "GM" brand (or whatever they want to call it) would do a lot to focus them on saving the company. Cheers, Scott.
Post #307,800 by folkert 4/24/09 2:09:05 PM Reply	Didn't I say that a while ago? Chevy only? I swear, I did.
Post #307,801 by Another Scott 4/24/09 2:10:09 PM Reply	Could be. My memory's not what it used to be. ;-)
Post #307,828 by Steve Lowe 4/25/09 2:09:29 PM Reply	Re: Bye bye Pontiac Chevy cars GMC trucks Cadillac luxury cars and trucks Do away with the rest.
Post #307,829 by drook 4/25/09 2:24:12 PM Reply	Luxury trucks? -- Drew
Post #307,833 by boxley 4/25/09 4:25:07 PM Reply	sure compete with lincoln and mercedes http://trucks.about..../bl_lincoln_1.htm http://www.trucktren...cks/photo_04.html
Post #307,834 by Steve Lowe 4/25/09 6:38:54 PM Reply	Re: Luxury trucks? Yeah - they have the Escalade (tahoe), ESV (suburban), and EXT (avalanche) already. And in the past few years, they've been positioning GMC as 'premium' line. So, instead of the 3 levels of trucks/suvs they have now, just have the two like Ford/Lincoln, Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus. It might make more sense to keep Chevy trucks and ditch GMC in the consumer market, but GMC is also big in the medium and heavy duty truck markets. Regardless, consolidation is certainly in order. The interesting thing here is these brands still have value. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of these brands re-emerge as new companies.
Post #307,837 by drook 4/25/09 10:24:15 PM Reply	Oh, I know what they were talking about It's more the idea of "luxury trucks". That's like saying "miniature elephants". Sure, you could breed them, and convince yuppies that they want them. But is that really the best use of your R & D budget? -- Drew
Post #307,841 by Steve Lowe 4/25/09 11:59:46 PM Reply	ah, gotcha
Post #307,840 by static 4/25/09 11:55:38 PM Reply	Same thing happened in Britain years ago. But notice that the European makers knew how to maintain the differentiation. VW group own Bentley, Bugatti, Audi, Skoda and Scania. Even if you factor in Porsche owning VW and Audi owning Lamboghini, still the range of cars don't overlap much at all. And all have distinct brand awareness. Wade. "Ah -- I take it the doorbell doesn't work?"
Post #307,843 by Another Scott 4/26/09 1:29:15 AM Reply	It's bitten VW a bit, though. The first VW Phaeton was built on the same assembly line as the Bentley Continental models. Smart buyers could figure that the Phaeton was a cheaper Bentley, but at least in the US, instead they said, "WTF? A $101k VW?!?!" http://en.wikipedia....olkswagen_Phaeton It's very hard for a company with lots of brands in the same category not to end up competing with itself and damaging its brands in the process. Ford learned that lesson with the Edsel, which was intended to be a brand between Ford and Mercury. GM was especially bad about that and never really learned that lesson. Cheers, Scott.
Post #307,844 by static 4/26/09 5:20:39 AM Reply	This is true. That's why I said they don't overlap much. The Phaeton was a good example. The Ford example is even better. Wade. "Ah -- I take it the doorbell doesn't work?"
Post #307,848 by folkert 4/26/09 8:55:21 AM Reply	Re: This is true. Ford Explorer Mercury Mountaineer Lincoln Navigator (I think that is the name) Ford Taurus Mercury Sable Lincoln ... (none) Ford Tempo Mercury Topaz Lincoln ... (none) Oh yes, Ford has learned its lesson. Sock the high end on unique cars except for the SUV market. Otherwise saturate the market with both brands. There really is NO distinction between Ford and Mercury anymore. At least the last 20 years has been this way. GM started blurring the lines between the brands in the 70s and really deserves to get everything its sown. Don't get me wrong, I love Oldsmobile... really and truly. I feel Pontiac and Buick should have been trimmed when they trimmed Oldsmobile a few years back.
Post #307,852 by Another Scott 4/26/09 9:27:08 AM Reply	It's been an uneven lesson. Mercury had the Capri in the past, when Ford didn't. I get your point, but at present: Ford - 18 vehicles at http://www.ford.com/...le-showroom#/ford: F150, Flex, Focus, Focus Coupe, Fusion, Fusion Hybrid, Mustang, Taurus X, Taurus, Edge, Escape, Escape Hybrid, Explorer, Explorer Sport Trac, Expedition, Ranger, F250-F350-F450, E-Series Mercury - 7 vehicles at http://www.ford.com/...showroom#/mercury: Mariner, Mariner Hybrid, Mountaineer, Grand Marquis (no de Sade Edition, though), Sable, Milan, Milan Hybrid. Yes, there's some overlap, and maybe more than there should be, but not as much as there is among GM divisions: Chevy (17), Pontiac (9), Buick (3), GMC (16), Saturn (5), Hummer (6), Saab (6), Cadillac (12). There's a lot of overlap there, especially among the SUVs/Crossovers (where the US companies put their development dollars over the last decade or so). I think GM's most obvious waypoint on the way to C11 was when they decided to shift V-8 engines among divisions. What made a Pontiac a Pontiac, and an Olds an Olds, was ultimately the engines. Sure, they could have economized by sharing more parts, but when they put Chevy engines in Oldsmobiles with no benefit for the buyer, it was a sign that GM was killing their brands. Cheers, Scott.
Post #307,861 by folkert 4/26/09 1:34:10 PM Reply	That event in 1977... GM putting Chevy engines in the Oldsmobile cars... Mainly a planning problem. They ran out of Oldsmobile engines and had to fill the orders. Mid-year screwup and a light went on for them. The Buick 231 was a horrible motor until they put a "North Front Cover Assembly" on that motor which had the oil-pump, water pump and timing pieces. Once they did that, it got put in DERN NEAR every car with a V6 in it from GM. Sure did make it feel like any car from GM was any car from GM. only real difference was the "trim" level. Feh, GM needs to cut the bone out on things and nearly start over.
Post #307,865 by Another Scott 4/26/09 3:24:21 PM Reply	That's not my recollection, but I could be wrong. I do have a bad memory when it comes to certain things that you bring up. ;-) My recollection is that GM had decided that it didn't make sense to do the engineering necessary to improve the mileage and emissions on all of their engines. So, they thought that if they put Chevy engines in Oldsmobiles they could save some scratch and nobody would care. Until old geezers would buy a Delta 88 and then go to change the oil and find out it had a Mouse motor in it. And they sued. Then GM started putting their disclaimer, "May contain an engine from other GM divisions...". Let's see... While the Wikipedia "Oldsmobile" article mentions the production issues, this story from the NY Times (just the first sentence or two is free) is closer to my recollection: http://select.nytime...994DB405B878BF1D3 G.M. Calls Its Engine Swapping Innocent, But to the Brand-Faithful Buyer It's a Sin By REGINALD STUART Special to The New York Times March 15, 1977, Tuesday Section: Business & Finance, Page 51, 1240 words DETROIT, March 14--Small wonder that the General Motors Corporation is putting Chevrolet engines in Oldsmobiles. It installed Oldsmobile engines in Cadillac's new luxury mid-sized Seville. IOW, it was GM being GM... ;-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #307,871 by static 4/26/09 8:25:32 PM Reply	IOW, it's bitten them a lot :-) Silly fools. Ford and GM, both. Wade. "Ah -- I take it the doorbell doesn't work?"
Post #307,860 by pwhysall 4/26/09 1:20:38 PM Reply	Chevrolet? Ugh. Over here, they're crappy rebadged Korean nasticars.
Post #307,872 by static 4/26/09 8:29:08 PM Reply	They don't have a good rap in Au, either. Most people know Chevy's as vintage American cars from decades ago, like Bel-Airs and Corvettes. GM Holden re-badges some Chevy stuff, but in a way to actually co-ordinate with the rest of their line. Wade. "Ah -- I take it the doorbell doesn't work?"

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