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New I disagree
Employed or not employed by the company, is not the issue.

The issue is self-identification as a salesperson.

If self-identified, then you are prepared and accept that their job is to lie to you. Comes with the territory.

But if they claim ANY other role, yet promote a particular solution that benefits them, while glossing over problems or alternatives, then they are a shill.
New Duly noted :-)
I disagree with your disagreement though.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Ummm . . not quite.
ALL employees of a company are charged with being sales people regardless of their title or skills.

Engineers in particular have a problem with this concept, which is why no sane company allows untrained engineers to talk to anyone without a chaperone, preferably a chaperone armed with tranquilizer darts.

Now an engineer properly trained and indoctrinated in sales, that is a company's most deadly stealth weapon.
New Shill has connotations
there would be no need for the word if it didn't have a negative connotation

if an MS employee stands up in front of a crowd at an MS event and tells you about MS products

that is not shilling

they may or may not be lying but that is a separate issue

from dictionary.com

shill /ʃɪl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[shil] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation Slang.

\ufffdnoun 1. a person who poses as a customer in order to decoy others into participating, as at a gambling house, auction, confidence game, etc.
2. a person who publicizes or praises something or someone for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty.
\ufffdverb (used without object) 3. to work as a shill: He shills for a large casino.
\ufffdverb (used with object) 4. to advertise or promote (a product) as or in the manner of a huckster; hustle: He was hired to shill a new TV show.

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Expand Edited by andread June 8, 2007, 09:40:42 AM EDT
New #2 all the way
You and him.
New I'm a shill...
but for [link|http://www.debian.org/|something completely different].

But you and I both know that Microsoft Operating Systems and other Microsoft products have a place in this world. Where that place is... is not exactly a low hydraulic(column of water) pressure location.
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New No you are not
When presented with a downside of your preferred environment, you rationally discuss it (usually). At least you will attempt to address it.

Usually when a downside is brought up to a shill, they sidestep, bullshit, or simply ignore it. They talk AT you, not TO you.
New You just proved my point
Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET
All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM
Reggae, African and Caribbean Music
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New Go back and review "our" interactions.
You/Me, Me/Him.

There have been various tech discussions between Greg and myself, and they would go into great detail of both opinions and observed facts. While sometimes they would explode (usually for the fun of it), there was always an underlying understanding that one of us MIGHT be wrong, and that there would ultimately be a technical answer that could prove it. We would both be open to it, and we would both actively explore (read manual, run commands, do research, etc).

We were willing to read each other's posts, and answer IN DETAIL to issues the other would bring up.

Then look at you/me, or you vs anyone who isn't a windows person. You would side step, obfuscate, and ignore any technical point that someone would bring up. You simply did not engage at the tech level.

That is a technical shill's behaviour.
New Re: Go back and review "our" interactions.
Greg said he was a shill

You said he wasn't

That demonstrates that not even you support the definition of a shill you've been pandering in this forum (anyone who advocates anything)

This does not appear to be one of those 'technical' matters you so obfuscatingly referred to

Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET
All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM
Reggae, African and Caribbean Music
[link|http://westcottradio.org|Tune In]
New Bullsh*t
anyone who advocates anything

That was your strawman definition


You/he promote the environment, purposefully ignoring flaws, because it benefits you.

Key: purposefully ignoring flaws,

I advocate lots of things, things that help me do my job or make my life easier. Any information someone wants to give me concerning flaws will be taken into account in the decision to continue to use (or not) the thing that I am currently advocating. Because I have choices. Tomorrow I could start using a competing product. I WANT to know (and possibly debate) the flaws. To get more info and to make better decisions.

I would expect any technical person to have the same attitude concerning any technology that they work with, except people who work for technical companies that sell technology. I would expect that person to act as a salesperson (as Andrew and others pointed out).

Note: They are still shilling for their company, it just is a bit more honest and aboveboard (if that is even possible).

You, on the other hand, do not have any apparent financial goal when ignoring or refusing to discuss flaws in your favorite environment. It's not like you get paid when more MS crap is sold.

Except for the general aspect of it keeping you employable. You've tied your fortunes to a particular bit of technology, controlled by a specific company, and push it whenever possible. Fine. Reasonable for someone who has painted themselves in a corner. You have no choice to use alternatives in your current job, and moving to any other job that doesn't use your exact technology would probably mean a signficant pay cut. People are paid on experience.

As I pointed it out before, that attitude is poison to the companies consuming the technology. And it is in your best interest to spread the poison.


You are in a group of people (this board), most of which have deep technical backgrounds. You present a tiny minority viewpoint for a reason. Telling me I pander to the board is like telling me that when I say oxygen is good, I'm pandering to those damn breathers.
Expand Edited by crazy June 9, 2007, 06:51:19 PM EDT
Expand Edited by crazy June 10, 2007, 06:40:33 PM EDT
New "Paid", sic. HTH! (That goes for all people. :-)
Expand Edited by CRConrad June 10, 2007, 02:48:56 PM EDT
New Don't be so hard on him.
Papa Andy provides useful information here. It's not like he's [link|http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?enc_user=2ujkthgAAAAbjK_xxk9lbKscyQkwtL0ywucTIxwOqukVKKQJDX9t2Q|Dale Ross] or something.

New nit, if he doesnt have much exposure outside of his
environment, and all he learns is force fed from his environment then its rather dificult to relate tech issues that he doesnt either
a> have familiararity with
b> can supply only the answer which matches the purveyors of this "fine" system

Kinda like coming to me on matters of Suomi drinking habits, other than morose and wanting to kill russians the only other thing I know is that they drink enough for our little buddy to get a woman in the land of the tall, skinny and fair haired.

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New nit not accepted
He'd an adult, a professional, with many years in the workforce.

I'll assume he's literate - he certainly can rip apart my poor prose and run around the web, finding definitions to match what he wants.

The alternative software is almost all free, the equipment required to run it cheap, and it's not like he spends a lot of time keeping up on the latest trends in MS networking software. Something tells me he's got plenty of chance to learn, and it is in the news on tech sites for the last (hmm...) 8 years (or so).

So he's either capable of learning about the alternatives which he's chosen to either simply ignore or actively fight against, or he's incompetent, which means it really doesn't matter what he has to say on the matter.

Almost every pro-MS person I've known for the last 10 years, who spent a little bit of time comparing the open source alternatives, came to understand that while they may not find the answers to their prayers in open source, they should always at least try to educate themselves about it and keep an open mind. Whew. Breathe.

The very few who didn't were deeply embedded consultants who would lose their cash cows if open source was utlitized.

The remaining ones "who couldn't be bothered" were idiot PHBs who failed upward and thought they knew tech. But they didn't. They were usually being manipulated by the embedded consultants.

New Re: Bullsh*t
to act as a spokesperson or promoter

this is the definition you supplied from your source

my conclusion that this means anyone who advocates anything follows
logically from that

the word 'paid' never entered your definition

as I stated earlier this is not the definition that people actually use

this includes you as shown by your recent responses

I don't think that you're so 'crazy' that you don't realize this

What really irks you is my attitude toward MS

yet your attitude toward open source does not antagonize me

Is this forum some sort of 'self-help' group where until an individual makes
certain addmissions they can't be accepted ("Hi, my name is Andy and I'm a ...")


Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET
All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM
Reggae, African and Caribbean Music
[link|http://westcottradio.org|Tune In]
New Nice try
As you pointed out, there is a negative connotation.

Mere advocating isn't enough.

The negative aspect is because shills present a trustworthy side, a side that people see as a competent or safe. While their goal is to push a particular viewpoint or product, that is not the focus of the conversation. So then it becomes it becomes issue of trust betrayed.

So starting out with an imagined a, and then saying a=b, b=c, so therefore c=a doesn't really do a lot for you. No matter how many words you want to put in my mouse (or type from my hands). The history is clear to read.

What really irks you is my attitude toward MS

Nope. Your hit and run postings that start out as a straight forward observation that is single sided. Because you are single sided. So when someone posts a competing viewpoint you dismiss it with a wave of your hand.

"These are not the droids you are looking for"

Except it doesn't work.

I also do see others go a bit rabid on the "He's shill! - Kill Him!" mode, which goes a bit above and beyond. I don't want that. I merely want you to learn enough about the alternatives that are out there so when someone does do an alternative post, you can engage.

Because at that moment, you might post something about the MS environment I'm forced to work in, and it might end up helping me.

New Re: Nice try
I'm glad to find you in a more conciliatory mood
but I'm really not sure what you're looking for

The post that began this discussion was from me
I noted that 2 of my 3 Vista installs had succeeded
the one that failed was the one done by the recommended MS method

this morphed into a discussion of UAC which I believed (and believe) that several of the posters did not understand how it works for non-admin users

then the 'inevitable' shill thing came up and here we are

Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET
All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM
Reggae, African and Caribbean Music
[link|http://westcottradio.org|Tune In]
New The passing point..
...where your argument and the others seemed to "pass like ships in the night" was in the qualifier of "non-admin users".

In a locked down corp environment I think we all understand that there are things lowly users will not be able to do, like remove or disable UAC. HOWEVER, this doesn't represent most users...since they are home machines where the main user is also the admin.

As for the definition of shill, I haven't been convinced to change my perception of the word, which still aligns largely with yours.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
     I disagree - (crazy) - (18)
         Duly noted :-) - (bepatient)
         Ummm . . not quite. - (Andrew Grygus)
         Shill has connotations - (andread) - (15)
             #2 all the way - (crazy) - (14)
                 I'm a shill... - (folkert) - (13)
                     No you are not - (crazy) - (12)
                         You just proved my point -NT - (andread) - (11)
                             Go back and review "our" interactions. - (crazy) - (10)
                                 Re: Go back and review "our" interactions. - (andread) - (9)
                                     Bullsh*t - (crazy) - (8)
                                         "Paid", sic. HTH! (That goes for all people. :-) -NT - (CRConrad)
                                         Don't be so hard on him. - (Another Scott)
                                         nit, if he doesnt have much exposure outside of his - (boxley) - (1)
                                             nit not accepted - (crazy)
                                         Re: Bullsh*t - (andread) - (3)
                                             Nice try - (crazy) - (2)
                                                 Re: Nice try - (andread) - (1)
                                                     The passing point.. - (bepatient)

I'm reconciled to the existence of idiots in the world, but I'm bitterly resentful of whoever it was who first thought to make computer technology available to them.
125 ms